Are Amps and Cabs still a thing moving forward?

[Happy Jack]

12 minutes ago, Nobatron said:

If you're playing on the pub scene and don't provide your own PA you'll almost certainly be taking an amp to every gig.

Oh we provide our own PA, but I'd still never turn up at a pub/club gig without backline.

For larger pubs we have a big Markbass PA that is also a superb bass rig, but for larger pubs that puts me behind the PA and standing next to a loud drummer, so I still want my own backline.

For smaller pubs we take our vox-only PA so ... backline. 

One thing that really works for me is consistency. If I take either the same rig, or at least the same structure, to every single gig, then I don't need to waste time & energy at each gig trying to remember what I'm doing and how it all plugs together. So at every gig I play I know that my basses must be plugged through a head (which varies according to what sort of gig it is) into a cab (which varies according to what sort of gig it is) but always using exactly the same cables and sequence.

Perhaps I should mention that at bigger gigs I also take a DI feed from the head and run that through the PA as a matter of course, but that's something that's a bolt-on to the backline, not the other way round.

 

[Nail Soup]

I use a amp simulator whenever the PA allows it. Otherwise bring an amp/combo.

Some have said that the amps enhance the visuals.... but having no amp gives me more room to move/pose/dance/jump etc.. I mean, what the audience rather look at.... more of me or a black box? 

Actually don't answer that!

Edited August 24, 2020 by Nail Soup

[Lozz196]

12 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

I play pubs and clubs. The idea of turning up at the Dog & Duck and saying, "I didn't bother to bring any backline, where's the venue's PA and sound guy?" is so preposterous that there's really no need to take the subject any further.

Like everything else in music (and most things in life), it's horses for courses. If you only play big, well-organised gigs with excellent PAs, experienced sound guys, and superb monitoring, the why would you bother to haul around a valve head plus a 410? That's not a good description of my musical life.

Nail/head for me, Jack. 

[casapete]

49 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

One thing that really works for me is consistency. If I take either the same rig, or at least the same structure, to every single gig, then I don't need to waste time & energy at each gig trying to remember what I'm doing and how it all plugs together.

This is a good point. One of the main reasons I use an amp and cab is to maintain consistency wherever I'm playing. Most of my gigs are in theatres, where the room and stage size can vary tremendously. Using my GK/410 rig means that the sound I hear is pretty much the same on all of them, so much so that I rarely feel the need to tweak the tone settings, just the overall volume. It sounds very much the same at lower or higher levels too. We do use monitors, but I don't have any bass in them, preferring to have my bass just in my rig behind me. When I've done gigs that have meant either relying heavily or solely on monitors for hearing my bass, I've often found the necessary eq for everything in the monitor mix is not what I want to hear for my bass if you get what I mean. I just like having my core onstage sound the same every time, with me in control of it!

Edited August 24, 2020 by casapete

[stewblack]

One band I dep for are all in ears (they provide me with a monitor when they use me) and if I got the regular gig I would buy whatever needed to comply with their way of working - but only for them. I can't stand the isolation of everyone in their own little bubble unable to hear each other talk. It kills interaction. 

Also I really like amps and cabs. I mean really like them. I don't want to use a backbeat and in ear monitors and effects to attempt to simulate what I can get by just plugging into an amp.

You may well feel differently and that's fine. I would never tell someone else that my way is better for them. I'd also hope to be treated with the same respect. 

[JohnDaBass]

12 hours ago, ahpook said:

If your amp's moving forward maybe some duct tape would help ?

Back in the early 70s a bassist friend of mine used to use 6 ins nails to nail his Vox Foundation cab to the stage floor to stop it moving forward. Happy days 😎

[casapete]

1 minute ago, stewblack said:

I can't stand the isolation of everyone in their own little bubble unable to hear each other talk. It kills interaction. 

This too ^^^^ When my band started using IEM's the difference in onstage interaction was very noticeable. For a while we had a mic ('ambient' ? ) set up front of stage so they could hear the audience, but soon gave it up. It's very strange for me now being the only band member who can actually hear the audience / room!

[dave_bass5]

Saw a band in a mid sized pub last year. No back line on stage. All IEM and they had a real drum kit. 

At the back of the room the sound was great, but on the dance floor there seemed to be a huge hole in the mix. Didn’t enjoy that at all. People were dancing but i noticed they were dancing more in front of the PA speakers, and no one was really dancing in the middle, in front of the band. 

[Frank Blank]

Most gigs I go into a QSC K12.2 via a HX Stomp. If there's a PA and monitors I'll just go to the PA via the Stomp, if the monitoring isn't up to much I go Bass - Stomp - QSC - PA, if there is no PA I can use the QSC as backline.

[Greg Edwards69]

It seems that more and more guitarists and bass players are going down the modelling route with either IEM or frfr backline, myself included.

Is is the same as a real amp cooking behind you? No, it's not. But it's a darn sight easier to load in and out, and set up. Not to mention tailoring the sound for the room - I certainly feel less like I'm fighting the venue's acoustics with this setup.

Sure, a real amp has a certain 'je ne said quoi', but how many average punters would be able to tell the difference?  Do they even care. (Maybe if it's a multi-band line up and you have a direct A-B comparison, but if you're the only band playing, I doubt the average Joe would audibly notice it's not a real amp.

EDIT: I meant to add....  It's a bit like mp3 over CD, or bluetooth instead of physical cables.  Yes the quality difference is subtly noticeable, but the benefits vastly outweigh the disadvantages, IMO. But that's just me. As ever, YMMV.

Dave_bass5 makes a good point regarding IEM and going direct to the PA.  It's great for bigger gig if everything is in the PA and there's little sound coming of the stage.  But in a smaller, intimate venue such as a pub, where people get within spitting distance, you need something to fill the void behind and between the PA speakers. Small combos or FRFR speakers are incredible these days and perfect for this situation.  I've just picked up a headrush frfr-108 mainly for home and rehearsals. Tried it last night as rehearsal and we were all blown away. Power and low end that belies it's size.  It would easily fill out a stage with PA support.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Greg Edwards69

[BigRedX]

Right now IME it very much depends on what kind of a band you are in, a what venues you play.

Covers in pubs where the PA is your own and mostly for vocals, you will need a traditional bass rig. 

Pretty much anything else and you can do what you want. I sold all my conventional bass amplification and bought a Helix and an RCF745 FRFR powered speaker. I found that at the smaller venues I was being asked to turn down to the extent that I could hear more bass guitar from the guitarist's wedge monitor over on the other side of the stage then I could from my own rig directly behind me; and on the bigger stages even though I was using a Tech Soundsystems 1kW bass amp into 6x10 EBS speakers as soon as I stepped out of the direct "line of fire" of my rig I could only hear the bass in the foldback. 

For me the Helix and RCF cab is an ideal solution. If the foldback on the in-house PA isn't up to the job I have the RCF which I position so that it "fires" across the stage for the rest of the band to be able to hear me rather than out front where it could potentially mess up the PA balance. It also means that for gigs with multiple bands where stage space is at a premium I can place the speaker in a place where it wouldn't be possible to easily fit a traditional bass rig. For the bigger gigs I don't even bother with the cab and just use the supplied foldback.

I've never noticed a problem with not being able to "feel" the sound. Most of the time I still couldn't even with a standard bass amp and speakers. The only time I've needed to use my FRFR cab to supply FoH bass sound the RCF was more than up to the task.

Edited August 24, 2020 by BigRedX

[ahpook]

It will always depend on what kind of gigs you do, what kind of set-up you like and how much money you have to spend.

If you're a amateur playing the odd gig here and there you're going to have a different approach to a pro who plays big, well-organised gigs.

There's never been a one-size-fits-all solution to how you get heard, modelling amps, FRFR, IEMs, etc. are unlikely to change that.

[DaytonaRik]

I'll happily run a DI from a head/preamp into IEMs, wedges, FOH - whatever works.  We play pubs but run a low-level backline mic'd with backline, kick, o/heads and snare going through the PA, maybe a full kit for a bigger room.  Whatever works in whatever situation.  If I had to choose 1 as a personal preference - it would be a preamp, no backline and IEMs.

[Lozz196]

I have in the past just used a preamp pedal with the band getting the bass from the monitors. So long as the levels are worked on properly at soundcheck then it’s fine, it’s just a problem if soundcheck isn’t long enough (or you don’t get one) or if the sound person is less than co-operative - have seen this, with point blank refusal to adjust “his” on stage mix.

[TRBboy]

We generally play pubs, weddings venues, parties etc, and usually only run a pair of mid-tops for vocals (and sometimes kick drum). We're pretty loud for a pub covers band.. And regularly having battles with levels of issues getting a good sound. The drums often get lost (as does the bass sometimes) due to the two guitarists valve amps. 

I've been trying to sell the idea of upgrading the PA and running everything through it for years, so that we can reduce the stage volume, have more control, and achieve a more consistent sound, possibly with a view to ditching the backline at some point.

Sadly no one else wants to buy into the idea. The vibe I get from the guitarists is that I'm creating a problem that doesn't exist, and that they just want to get the big amps out and make some noise. 

The drummer doesn't really have an opinion as he feels the whole conversation is outside of his sphere of knowledge. 

I find the whole thing frustrating, but a band is a democracy and I'm one voice out of 4, if I can't get the other guys to buy into it then that's that. 🤷🏻‍♂️

EDIT: We do actually have a pair of subs, but they virtually never get used because the rest of the guys don't think it's necessary. Unless we're playing a big outdoor gig or something. 

Edited August 24, 2020 by TRBboy

[Nobatron]

7 minutes ago, TRBboy said:

The vibe I get from the guitarists is that I'm creating a problem that doesn't exist, and that they just want to get the big amps out and make some noise. 

Sounds like you need to bring out the baffle of shame.

[Len_derby]

I think a lot of us share your pain @TRBboy. 😉

Edited August 24, 2020 by Len_derby
Spellin’

[TRBboy]

4 minutes ago, Len_derby said:

I think a lot of us share your pain @TRBboy. 😉

Glad I'm not the only one! 

I was saying to someone the other day, it's really weird that the guitar world seems to have completely skipped a step compared to the bass world; we've gradually seen lighter and lighter amps and cabinets, and then more use of modelling /in-ears etc, whereas the guitar world seem to have completely skipped lightweight amps and give straight to modelling, so now you have a completely polarised situation where some guitarists want their 100w tube half stack still, and others want a Kemper and in-ears! 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Greg Edwards69]

1 hour ago, TRBboy said:

Glad I'm not the only one! 

I was saying to someone the other day, it's really weird that the guitar world seems to have completely skipped a step compared to the bass world; we've gradually seen lighter and lighter amps and cabinets, and then more use of modelling /in-ears etc, whereas the guitar world seem to have completely skipped lightweight amps and give straight to modelling, so now you have a completely polarised situation where some guitarists want their 100w tube half stack still, and others want a Kemper and in-ears! 🤷🏻‍♂️

Hmmm, maybe. It seems (to me at least) that bass players have been quite late to jump on the modelling bandwagon.  I know a number of guitarists who've been using modelling amps since their infancy, as well as modelling guitars. They were doing that whilst were was busy exploring lightweight amps. It appears to be only the last 2 or 3 years that so many bass players have dived down the modelling rabbit hole (pretty much since the Helix and HX Stomp arrived on the scene).

Edited August 24, 2020 by Greg Edwards69

[BigRedX]

IME the amp/cab is less important to getting a good bass sound as they are for guitarists to get a good guitar sound.

I have a Helix, but very few of my patches use amp sims and none use cab sims (unless the chosen amp sim is only available in combo format). Where I have used an amp sim it generally tends to be for the drive sound so in effect I'm using it as a distortion device rather than a model of a particular amp. For the patches that don't use an amp sim I just have EQ and Compression modules (plus any required effects).

Before I had the Helix I was using a rack multi-effects direct into a power amp.

[EBS_freak]

20 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

I play pubs and clubs. The idea of turning up at the Dog & Duck and saying, "I didn't bother to bring any backline, where's the venue's PA and sound guy?" is so preposterous that there's really no need to take the subject any further.

Like everything else in music (and most things in life), it's horses for courses. If you only play big, well-organised gigs with excellent PAs, experienced sound guys, and superb monitoring, the why would you bother to haul around a valve head plus a 410? That's not a good description of my musical life.

But what happens if you as a band, are bringing a PA to the venue?

And even if you don't...

with modellers, a split box and your own digital mixer, there's nothing stopping you from bringing your monitoring solution. The sound guys life is super easy - they just take an out to feed into their desk.

[EBS_freak]

9 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

IEMs are a bit of a pfaff to be honest...our old singer had some and it was always a bit of a runaround getting them to work properly.  We'd have our slot, singer would be shouting at the sound guy that they weren't working.

That's probably more of an indication to the poor quality of the IEM unit that they were using sound guy.

[EBS_freak]

7 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

Saw a band in a mid sized pub last year. No back line on stage. All IEM and they had a real drum kit. 

At the back of the room the sound was great, but on the dance floor there seemed to be a huge hole in the mix. Didn’t enjoy that at all. People were dancing but i noticed they were dancing more in front of the PA speakers, and no one was really dancing in the middle, in front of the band. 

Thats because people haven't put out a centre speaker.

Funnily enough a centre fill speaker is always helpful for projecting vocals - same problem occurs. Those dancing in the void complain they can't hear the lead vocals. 

[stewblack]

2 hours ago, Nobatron said:

Sounds like you need to bring out the baffle of shame.

I watched a rig run down with Tadeschi Trucks (both of them and the bloke named after an octave pedal) and Mr Trucks not only doesn't use in ears he doesn't use monitors either! Whatever size the stage he cranks his amp so it sounds how he likes it to sound. 

Quite right too. What other artist would be dictated to like a musician is? Imagine telling a photographer what iso they're allowed to use because you think pictures look better taken the way you like. 

His rig is baffled to hell and back in an attempt not to have slide guitar in every other mic on stage though! 

[EBS_freak]

15 minutes ago, stewblack said:

I watched a rig run down with Tadeschi Trucks (both of them and the bloke named after an octave pedal) and Mr Trucks not only doesn't use in ears he doesn't use monitors either! Whatever size the stage he cranks his amp so it sounds how he likes it to sound. 

Quite right too. What other artist would be dictated to like a musician is? Imagine telling a photographer what iso they're allowed to use because you think pictures look better taken the way you like. 

His rig is baffled to hell and back in an attempt not to have slide guitar in every other mic on stage though! 

Yeah, f**k the audience's hearing. F**k working with the sound guy so the band can actually sound decent upfront. F**k everybody but the musician.

Actually, that pretty much sums up the self-centredness of pretty every musician I know.