Valve vs everything else!

[andy67]

One of the guys in the band asked me a few days ago why the other guitarists 18w Hughes and Kettner tubemeister gets over superbly in the mix given the rest of us are not short on watts? 

He is currently looking to buy a new amp but cannot get a reasonable explanation as to why valve amps just sound louder than all the other classes?

So, I thought I would throw the question out to all you great guys here to see if there is a simple or technical answer for him.

cheers all

Andy

 

 

[chris_b]

If he likes the HK so much, suggest he buys one. Problem solved.

[Newfoundfreedom]

Heft!

 

(I'll get my coat)

[andy67]

1 minute ago, chris_b said:

If he likes the HK so much, suggest he buys one. Problem solved.

It’s not quite him and the price tag is bit on the high side at the moment. I suggested a Blackstar. 

[Beedster]

Watts have nothing to do with loudness or tone. IME a 25w tube head such as a B-15 through an efficient cab can blow a 250 Class D out of the water on both counts. But as ever, it’s horses for courses, volume isn’t everything and tone is a very subjective thing

[Beedster]

53 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Heft!

 

(I'll get my coat)

Yes, heft, grunt etc all play their part

[andy67]

16 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Watts have nothing to do with loudness or tone. IME a 25w tube head such as a B-15 through an efficient cab can blow a 250 Class D out of the water on both counts. But as ever, it’s horses for courses, volume isn’t everything and tone is a very subjective thing

Indeed and as you know, the PF50T partnered with an efficient cab, cuts through a mix beautifully 👍

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 8, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[andy67]

18 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

It could be countless things, from relative volume, EQ, or the guitars used.

Valves do impart certain qualities, especially when overdriven but it's not that different. There are crap valve amps out there too, even!

The guitarist Scott, is very literal and will only accept scientific technical proof of why valve amps are louder! It's infuriating at times because I tried to explain volume curve or headroom in that an SS breaks up much quicker than a Valve amp but this was not enough to satisfy his thirst for his quest.

Edited September 19, 2020 by andy67

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 8, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, andy67 said:

The guitarist Scott, is very literal and will only accept scientific technical proof of why valve amps are louder! It's infuriating at times because I tried to explain volume curve or headroom in that an SS breaks up much quicker than a Valve amp but this was not enough to satisfy his thirst for his quest.

I'm feeling lazy and I have to cook so there's a 'technical' explanation buried here 

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_guide_to/making_it_loud.html

enjoy

[andy67]

54 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

Tell him that, scientifically, valve amps aren't louder!

Fletcher-Munson curves (officially now known as Equal Loudness Contours, I believe), the effects of dynamic compression, and other pycho-acoustic effects show that valve amps CAN be a perfect storm of greater perceived loudness, but there's no magic in the little glass bottles.

Simply put, if turning the volume up doesn't appear to make that guitar louder or better placed in the mix, then it will be something else, unrelated specifically to valves. In broad strokes, a greater focus on the upper mids where our ears are most sensitive (the primary range of the human voice, of course) might help. Also, a spot of correctly applied compression might help (but don't ask too much about that here, it usually gets messy!. The best place to look is in articles on audio engineering- the more scientific ones rather than the creative ones.)

What amp is he using, by the way? The design of guitar tone stacks isn't always intuitive, and can easily fall foul of that Fletcher-Munson thing above.

Ultimately, if he wants a scientific understanding of the likelyhood of a valve amp appearing louder or being more present in a mix, then there is no snappy soundbite which will give it to him. He's got to dig into the science, which is never simple, and rarely obvious, certainly in audio.

At the moment a Vox Valvetronic AC30 thingy that is too heavy and failing. 

[andy67]

34 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm feeling lazy and I have to cook so there's a 'technical' explanation buried here 

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/the_guide_to/making_it_loud.html

enjoy

Fantastic 👍👏 link copied and sent on. Will see where his head goes and what he ends up buying. 
 

For now, I’ve loaned him my old much smaller and lighter than the Vox, Marshall AVT50. 

[Skybone]

I'd also suggest that your guitarist should spend some time at rehearsal dialling in his EQ to get it sitting in the band mix. OK, this is going to take a bit of patience for the rest of the band, but by doing it, he'll get a sound that will fit in with everyone else, rather than start on the endless trek of buying new gear.

I assume that his EQ was set to sound Good on his own, rather than fit in with the band. I would also suggest that the miss should be boosted rather than scooped, which should give him a better overall sound.

Also turn the Gain down, and use the Master Volume.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Skybone

[andy67]

8 hours ago, Skybone said:

I'd also suggest that your guitarist should spend some time at rehearsal dialling in his EQ to get it sitting in the band mix. OK, this is going to take a bit of patience for the rest of the band, but by doing it, he'll get a sound that will fit in with everyone else, rather than start on the endless trek of buying new gear.

I assume that his EQ was set to sound Good on his own, rather than fit in with the band. I would also suggest that the miss should be boosted rather than scooped, which should give him a better overall sound.

Also turn the Gain down, and use the Master Volume.

He does do that and his tone is pretty good.  I think it’s all about the fact that the other guitarist just wanders in, sets up his 18w valve head, connects it to his orange 1x12 cab, powers it on and he’s there! Lol 😂 

So, Scott has decided to sell his Peavey 5150 and 4x12 to get a smaller lighter rig that can do a similar job. However he is struggling a little due to the amount of guitar gear available promising the moon on a stick. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by andy67

[Lozz196]

In my old covers band the guitarist had that very same rig, sounded great but what a ‘mare to move about. He ended up with two Marshall 1x12s and if I recall correctly an a Orange Terror amp and was just as loud as before, but sooo much more practical.