Paul Cooke Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Just how many watts is a reasonable minimum for holding you own in a jam: 50? 100? 200??? I'm speccing and pricing up combos... must be able to be heard in a pub blues jam and also must be light in weight (don't want to pop the back out again) and light on the wallet... My current combo is obviously way to small for the job, but fine for home practice. If I can afford more watts (back and/or wallet), then I'll go for them (nice to have in reserve), but I want to know what the minimum people consider necessary to go out and join in on jam sessions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 In the jam sessions I go to, backline is provided. But I'd say 100 watts would be ok, 200 watts would be great. 300 watts would be unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 The obvious questions will be is there a drummer, what wattage are the guitarists likely to be using, is there PA etc. You haven't posed the question to be told the usual advice; as much as you can afford/carry, so I'll submit my thoughts for ridicule! I'd say that speaking from personal experience, every time I've used less than 150 watts I've found myself struggling (I couldn't manage to gig a GK MB150 with a drummer even with a small extension cab). I've occasionally tried to use 100watt combos for little shows/buskers etc and I'm always on the limit and that's with a quiet drummer (they do indeed exist... just slip them Ritalin before you start). I've found 200 watts works fine in most small pub situations or if you have PA support you can even manage with a bit less. Going up from 250 watts you start giving yourself headroom and the ability to gig in pubs with louder drummers and no support. There is the caveat that it does all depend on individual circumstances; PA, other band members, venue etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Wattage is a difficult one to quantify with "how much is enough?" because it isn't a true reflection on volume, or SPL. I've used a 500W Ashdown head thru a 4x10 cab and not felt I could get an adequate volume level, but my Trace 300W head thru the same cab was fine with the volume on 3. it's to do with effieciency of the amp, of the speakers, voicings of the amp and speaker (a more "middly" amp will cut thru better than a more "bassy" amp, c.f. my Trace and the Ashdown) etc etc.... But, despite all that nonsense, I'd say no less than 150W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 In my opinion, its better to have to many, then not enough Buy a 300 watt amp, you'll never need 300watts at a jam, run it at a quarter so you won't be pushing it to its limit. You'll also have that lil bit more oomph for larger gigs. If u plump for 50-150 watts, theres a chance that you'll be running it flat-out all the time, not ideal! I have a 120watt practice, its cool for acoustic jams, but once you add drums, the overall volume increases considerably. Headroom is the order of the day for me Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='Merton' post='46393' date='Aug 16 2007, 01:00 PM']Wattage is a difficult one to quantify with "how much is enough?" because it isn't a true reflection on volume, or SPL. I've used a 500W Ashdown head thru a 4x10 cab and not felt I could get an adequate volume level, but my Trace 300W head thru the same cab was fine with the volume on 3. it's to do with effieciency of the amp, of the speakers, voicings of the amp and speaker (a more "middly" amp will cut thru better than a more "bassy" amp, c.f. my Trace and the Ashdown) etc etc.... But, despite all that nonsense, I'd say no less than 150W.[/quote] +1 on that. Hamster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 You are probably gonna be disappointed in the light weight/wallet requirement as good lightweight gear aint cheap. Apart from that, also remember that most combo's only output the specified watts when used with an extension cab. Apart from that as alluded to above - therer are too many variables to consider to be able to give a magic number so I'll fall back on the ususal advice - the more the better, also considering that speaker efficiency has far more impact on volume than watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted August 16, 2007 Author Share Posted August 16, 2007 I'm currently looking at this: [url="http://www.behringer.com/BX1800/index.cfm?lang=eng"]http://www.behringer.com/BX1800/index.cfm?lang=eng[/url] Behringer Ultrabass BX1800 £172 retail although this: [url="http://www.behringer.com/BXL1800/index.cfm?lang=eng"]http://www.behringer.com/BXL1800/index.cfm?lang=eng[/url] Behringer Ultrabass BXL1800 at £203 retail might be better as it has more on-board features plus is 8 lb lighter and has the sub-harmonic processing A Peavey with enough watts is out of my price range... £200 (I can push the extra 3 squid for the Behringer BXL1800) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Buy 2nd hand, loads of potential to find the perfect amp on these very pages! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 With the quality and range of equipment for sale on these forums, secondhand is a very good option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildman Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='The Funk' post='46455' date='Aug 16 2007, 02:43 PM']With the quality and range of equipment for sale on these forums, secondhand is a very good option.[/quote] Go for 300w on the basis you can always turn it down for quieter gigs and the headroom is always good. The big factor is your budget. If you can push a bit more than you've got then you will be rewarded with better sound quality and delivery. If you cant, theres nothing wrong with the Behringers to get you started, but they dont hold their value that well and you will need to apply more cash to upgrade when the time comes. 2. Get an amp with a mid range tone control. Pushing up the mids does more for cutting through than the bass control. 3. 1x15 with mid range or tweeter, dont do what I did and start with just a 1x15, you will shake the floor, but thats about it. More, smaller speakers will throw your sound to the back of the room. 3. Scout the second-hand pages of this site, there are plenty of good bargains about 4. At Jams, use the backline provided, unless your band is running the jam. Its generally bad form to turn up with your own gear at a jam and push the existing kit to one side, especially if its better quality than yours. Good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShergoldSnickers Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 On their own, wattage values are almost meaningless. It depends which speakers the amp is driving. It also depends on the resistive load. Are we driving 4 ohms or 8? However, if enough gigs were watched in pubs to see what worked, there will be an average band of power outputs that will give a rough and ready guide though, and I'd say that I'd prefer something between 200 and 300 watts. [b]Very[/b] rough and ready though. Given that reproducing bass frequencies means large movements of cones to move sufficient air about, an amplifier with the clout to do this is a good idea. One that has a beefy power supply with oodles of power on tap is the ideal, but it's not all about raw power alone. Imagine running a domestic tap attached to a large balloon full of water. You aren't going to get much force from the water springing forth from the tap. Now bung that tap on the bottom of the Hoover dam. That's what a bass amp needs, plenty of reserve and headroom. Then there is the question of how efficiently the speakers convert the amp output into sound. This is probably a bit of a neglected area. Most look at the amp first and the speakers second. But, buy some really efficient speakers and you can then afford to look at a less powerful amp. You'll get the same sound power level (SWL) with fewer watts, lighter weight and less cost. So, whilst getting efficient speakers can effectively double the SWL with every 3dB increase in speaker efficiency, the power output stage of a bass amp should still be built to provide quick bursts of extra power when needed. Of course the efficient speaker may not be more efficient in the frequency range where you need it! It's all about getting a compromise that works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spikyhedgehog Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 5 million. Just.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeh Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 I've said it 100 times before and I'll say it again Fender Rumble 100 1 15" . Far louder than the 100 watts wouls suggest and plenty loud enough for gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='ShergoldSnickers' post='46545' date='Aug 16 2007, 01:05 PM']On their own, wattage values are almost meaningless. It depends which speakers the amp is driving. Then there is the question of how efficiently the speakers convert the amp output into sound. This is probably a bit of a neglected area. Most look at the amp first and the speakers second. But, buy some really efficient speakers and you can then afford to look at a less powerful amp. You'll get the same sound power level (SWL) with fewer watts, lighter weight and less cost.[/quote] +1. I personally am now running one channel of a Superfly and find it's more than adequate, but I have high sensitivity speakers. It makes a difference with tubes too, as the natural compression of a tube amp can easily make it sound as loud as an uncompressed signal with 200 watts SS. While I'd not say that 50 watts tube is enough with off the shelf speakers, in the case of high sensitivity speakers it can even be more than enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
setekh Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 [quote name='mikeh' post='46548' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:09 PM']I've said it 100 times before and I'll say it again Fender Rumble 100 1 15" . Far louder than the 100 watts wouls suggest and plenty loud enough for gigs.[/quote] hey...thats always good to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machines Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 I used my Ashdown Electric-Blue 180w at my first gig and it wasn't quite up to it (farted a bit). As soon as I attached a MAG210 cab and ran it at 4ohm - everything was perfect, only have the volume on about 3-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 Buy a secondhand decent quality rig rather than Behringer. You'll feel better about it in the long run. Chances are the s/h kit will hold its money better too. Oh and 300w+ Like a lot of people say, you're better off running the amp at 3 than having to run it flat out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted August 16, 2007 Share Posted August 16, 2007 As has already been suggested, the loudness of the amp is probaby more relevant to me. I used to run an Eden WT800 into a pair of 8ohm 2x10" cabs and they were pasted by a GK RB400 combo as far as volume goes. Better quality sound from a single driver also - much clearer in the mids and lower frequencies to my ears. I've also played my '79 Alembic Series 1 through a 100w Burman valve head through an Ashdown 4x8 and 1x15 and blasted away the guitarist who was playing through a 100w Fender Twin. The GK RB700 1x15 combos I keep raving about are more than enough for most gigs I play in small - medium sized bars and would probably be OK for a larger venue like the Clapham Grand if it wasn't too far from me and used like a wedge monitor. I tried adding a 2x10 to the combo for fun once and the volume was just silly - I couldn't get the amp quiet enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='Machines' post='46592' date='Aug 16 2007, 08:01 PM']I used my Ashdown Electric-Blue 180w at my first gig and it wasn't quite up to it (farted a bit). As soon as I attached a MAG210 cab and ran it at 4ohm - everything was perfect, only have the volume on about 3-4.[/quote] A combo is rated on what it can run at at 4 ohms, so running it with just the attached speaker (8ohms) probably means its running at 100watts or something, attaching that extra cab will enable it to run at the full 180watts. Its also perceived as being louder because more speakers move more air! Theres also an increased speaker surface area, so therefore more bass response! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 +1 for the advice that watts alone isn't necessarily going to help you achieve what you want in terms of volume. The same amp through two different speakers, one much more efficient than the other, is going to generate two very different amounts of volume. Perhaps the better and more readily answerable question to pose would be, "What combo should I get that will be fairly light but sufficiently loud enough that I can use it at my local jam session. I have £xxx to spend." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cooke Posted August 18, 2007 Author Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) I'm now "sorted"... just got back from a fellow forum members place with a nice Laney RB6 in the back of my car... what a nightmare drive... M5 holiday traffic both ways... stop/go/crawl in heavy rain... no fun at all, and my back's now playing up... :wacko: no alternate route either in or out of the West Country either... I'm nadgered now... too tired to even play with my new "toy"... Nice box, 165 Watts rms, a 15" speaker and horn... nice price... inside my budget... he's sorted as well... tiny little box with 12" speaker and 440 watts!!! Mark Bass I think it had on the grill... anyway, much lighter than the Laney, but way out of my budget... Maybe one day... Edited August 18, 2007 by Paul Cooke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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