Jeff Berlin speaks

[Bilbo]

I just lifted this of Jeff berlin's MySpace page. I think he talks a lot of sense.


'Scott Thunes is best known as the bass player for Frank Zappa. He is also a teacher of MUSIC, not just instrument. Here is a couple of quotes from him from his comments in the April 2009 Bass Player magazine.

Scott said, "I swear, I lost every adult student I ever had because I forced them to read music before I'd even think about teaching them that funky sh*t on the bass."

He further said, "Who are these kids that just want to pick up an instrument and play? I never got that! An instrument was always an excuse to be a part of music, not an end in itself.
If you don't understand music, then what's the point?"

The man is right! I have to confess that I too, can't figure out why people decide to buy an instrument and then don't do the work to make it speak. Kids may protest doing things they have to do.
But grown up adults?

Here' some truth. Philosophies about how to play, when to play, what to play, are nonsense if there isn't any substance behind these musical decisions. Playing principles are crazy if the players themselves don’t have the musical tools to play. Even non-reading musicians who function in a musical style have learned their styles through constant playing, constant investigation of music, even if it wasn’t from lessons from a music teacher. Only players who don't know music, who don't spend time on their instrument, and who don't function in a musical style with any authenticity come up with questions and problems in playing.
Period!

I have said a million times that learning music solves all things. It does! The only lessons that you should pay for in my opinion is a lesson in content. This idea works in every single classroom situation in every single principle to be learned all over the world. Why don’t people in music understand this? Scott Thunes has found out that an awful lot of players don't do the work they are supposed to, that they are expected to do without compromise or lamenting the work that is there in front of them to do.
It is their responsibility to work at their chosen craft, else, why choose it in the first place? This is what Scott and me to for that matter, can’t figure out? Why own a guitar if you don’t intend to produce music from it?

If you don't learn music, you will not improve as a player. Sorry, it ain't my rules. God long ago laid out the plan for Mankind to work hard at their chosen craft if they wished to improve in it. Philosphy of playing is a humbug because philosophy cannot be used to coax music from you if you do not have the music to coax. Therefore, I say with no hesitation, if you love music, then work for it by only studying real, eternal, irrefutable, long standing musical facts and information on your instruments. Play gigs, but never pay money for gig lessons. If music is not the central core of any lesson that you are studying, then it is most likely a bogus lesson or philosophy , something that looks good on paper, but, guaranteed to fall short when directly applied to one's instrument. If 100% of all the great players in history got their skills through proven, undeniable methods and approaches to playing, then why does anybody need to change the rules? They work and they work perfectly. If it ain't broke.......... But, Scott Thunes has found a whole generation of guys who are so mis-led about how to become better players that it galls him that he has the right tools to help people and they won’t take them from him.
As Rhett Butler said to Scarlett, "You are throwing away happiness with both hands and you don't even know it!"



I have lost interest in JB's music but these philosophies are pretty much in tune with my own.

[Kiwi]

It's another lesson in stating the obvious innit? Has Jeff actually met and conversed with Scott Thunes sufficiently to distinguish between the guys own problems and the extent of issues that Jeff claims exist in the wider musical world?

Also giving Jeff the benefit of any doubt for a second, I don't know why he takes so many words to say 'where's the craftsmanship gone?'

I'd agree with him on that but point out that its not just music, its many aspects of creative endeavour - music, film, comedy, painting etc. Sometimes out of time and financial pressure, sometimes just to be ironic (as in Damien Hurst's work). All to do with the commercialisation of culture and the commodification of activities that most people invariably started off doing for sheer enjoyment more than anything. This is what gives rise to kitsch and noone ever really lost loads of money by under estimating the taste of the general public, did they?

[Bilbo]

Wish you were right but watch this space!!

[The Funk]

Short-cut culture. That's all it is. "How can I get to where you are without having to put in any of the work you put in for all those years?"

EDIT: I get that some people could learn as much theory as they like and still not be able to come up with an interesting line [i]but[/i] I prefer having an idea of my options in a given musical situation to having to fumble around and stumble upon something that sounds cool.

Edited March 16, 2009 by The Funk

[BigBeefChief]

I think he's a bit of a retard.

Fair play for having a view and sticking to it. But he's Jeff Berlin. He's done nothing musically of interest to me EVER. There are plenty of musicians who took the short cuts, who didn't learn to read, who interest me musically in almost everything they do. Some of these guys have no real technical skill, I just like what they do.

Also, Jeff Berlin seems to have the view that if your not learning to read then you shouldn't be playing an instrument. What about the countless people who are happy blindly fumbling around in their bedrooms just for the fun of it? What about those gigging musicians who go out of a saturday night with their covers band for a laugh and a bit of beer money. Not everyone wants to be a mulletted, hi-tech wearing git like him.

He always sounds very bitter about the fact that there are countless "lesser" bass players who have much more success than he does. Mention Jeff Berlin outside of the bass community and you'll get one response; "who?"

Edited March 16, 2009 by BigBeefChief

[Bilbo]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='436186' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:16 PM']What about the countless people who are happy blindly fumbling around in their bedrooms just for the fun of it?[/quote]

If I wasn't a grown-up......

[steve]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='436186' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:16 PM']I think he's a bit of a retard.

Fair play for having a view and sticking to it. But he's Jeff Berlin. He's done nothing musically of interest to me EVER. There are plenty of musicians who took the short cuts, who didn't learn to read, who interest me musically in almost everything they do. Some of these guys have no real technical skill, I just like what they do.

Also, Jeff Berlin seems to have the view that if your not learning to read then you shouldn't be playing an instrument. What about the countless people who are happy blindly fumbling around in their bedrooms just for the fun of it? What about those gigging musicians who go out of a saturday night with their covers band for a laugh and a bit of beer money. Not everyone wants to be a mulletted, hi-tech wearing git like him.

He always sounds very bitter about the fact that there are countless "lesser" bass players who have much more success than he does. Mention Jeff Berlin outside of the bass community and you'll get one response; "who?"[/quote]

+1 I like punk, indie, rock, where the theoretical side isn't required particularly, and some of it isn't musically challenging, but that doesn't mean it's any less valid, some of the more popular covers we play are the simpler ones.

Having said that, I do practice to improve my playing and reading, and I am interested in theory, but I do it because I want to, not because anyone else says I should

[BigBeefChief]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-theory, but I also think that to many, bass is just a hobby. JB ssems to think that everyone wants to be him. I don't. If I was bitching that I couldn't get any session work, but couldn't be bothered to learn to read, then he'd have a point.

[Beneath It All]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='436186' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:16 PM']I think he's a bit of a retard.

Fair play for having a view and sticking to it. But he's Jeff Berlin. He's done nothing musically of interest to me EVER. There are plenty of musicians who took the short cuts, who didn't learn to read, who interest me musically in almost everything they do. Some of these guys have no real technical skill, I just like what they do.

Also, Jeff Berlin seems to have the view that if your not learning to read then you shouldn't be playing an instrument. What about the countless people who are happy blindly fumbling around in their bedrooms just for the fun of it? What about those gigging musicians who go out of a saturday night with their covers band for a laugh and a bit of beer money. Not everyone wants to be a mulletted, hi-tech wearing git like him.

He always sounds very bitter about the fact that there are countless "lesser" bass players who have much more success than he does. Mention Jeff Berlin outside of the bass community and you'll get one response; "who?"[/quote].........................ABSOLUTELY!.ALTHOUGH I'M THE THEORETICAL TYPE, I KNOW LOTS OF SELF TAUGHT PLAYERS[SOME WHO UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE DOING,AND SOME WHO DON'T HAVE A CLUE] WHO KICK ASS; I ALSO KNOW LOTS OF GRADUATE MUSOS WHO SUCK!!...THANK GOODNESS THE BEATLES REFUSED THE OFFER OF SOME FORMAL MUSICAL EDUCATION!!!

[crez5150]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='436186' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:16 PM']I think he's a bit of a retard.

Fair play for having a view and sticking to it. But he's Jeff Berlin. He's done nothing musically of interest to me EVER. There are plenty of musicians who took the short cuts, who didn't learn to read, who interest me musically in almost everything they do. Some of these guys have no real technical skill, I just like what they do.

Also, Jeff Berlin seems to have the view that if your not learning to read then you shouldn't be playing an instrument. What about the countless people who are happy blindly fumbling around in their bedrooms just for the fun of it? What about those gigging musicians who go out of a saturday night with their covers band for a laugh and a bit of beer money. Not everyone wants to be a mulletted, hi-tech wearing git like him.

He always sounds very bitter about the fact that there are countless "lesser" bass players who have much more success than he does. Mention Jeff Berlin outside of the bass community and you'll get one response; "who?"[/quote]

Absolutely BBC..... what about all those Blues players that were supposed to be the founding for modern rock'n roll.... I bet a lot of them couldn't read let alone read music.... it was about the feeling and transferring the crap they went through into music....

I think this sums JB up, IMO of course... 'mulletted, hi-tech wearing git'

[Wil]

Hear hear.

[The Funk]

[quote name='steve' post='436272' date='Mar 16 2009, 04:41 PM']Having said that, I do practice to improve my playing and reading, and I am interested in theory, but I do it because I want to, not because anyone else says I should[/quote]

You should never do anything just because someone else says you should.

I had a music teacher at school who was a bit of a rebel. He told us to forget about theory and lessons to start with - just pick up an instrument and see how you get on. If it works for you then learn to play it.

If it wasn't for that advice I wouldn't be a bassist or musician at all.

I tried to pick up as much theory as possible along the way because I got frustrated at not knowing what note choices I had on tunes my friends were writing. It would have been a lot quicker and easier to do if I could read well.

Music education should be a totally personal thing though. I have younger friends, bandmates and former bandmates who are doing music at uni. It's depressing how standard their friends' playing is and how their highest ambition is to play for someone like Jay-Z. Noone picks up a musical instrument to play behind Jay-Z.

I also think it's disgraceful how little emphasis any of these institutions place on rhythm and melody. They spend all their time thinking about harmony - which is obviously important - but so many of them to play with a total lack of fluidity. One of the problems a lot of non-jazzers have with jazz is that many modern soloists think it's ok to try one idea, abandon it, pause, try something else, abandon it, pause, try something else, pause, think, squeak, run arpeggio practice patterns, give up.

[GreeneKing]

Personally I need to understand whats going on musically to be able to play.

But I know a lot of people out there who gig regularly, play far better than me and have a great time without being able to read music or academically understand chord structure.

So I'd suspect that the Berlin stuff is a narrow viewpoint, valid only if you are of that ilk. I think that if you are going to take playing to the nth degree then it becomes progressively more important too.

[MB1]

[quote name='GreeneKing' post='436307' date='Mar 16 2009, 05:05 PM']Personally I need to understand whats going on musically to be able to play.

:unsure:But I know a lot of people out there who gig regularly, play far better than me and have a great time without being able to read music or academically understand chord structure.

So I'd suspect that the Berlin stuff is a narrow viewpoint, valid only if you are of that ilk. I think that if you are going to take playing to the nth degree then it becomes progressively more important too.[/quote]

MB1.

..Thought his "War of the Worlds" cd was alright!...doesnt seem to have done much recently....

[GonzoBass]

I believe the fact that everyone can set their own goals to be one of the beauties of music.
If the music is in you and wants out,
it will find a way.

Whether it be through years of classical study,
learning cover tunes by ear to play in a bar,
singing in the shower
or simply thumping on the dashboard to your favorite tune when it comes on the car radio
(Coletrane's quote about playing a shoestring if you're sincere comes to mind).

...and even if it only makes the "musician" happy, it can't be all bad.
Now can it?


I see the similarities in any of the other Arts-

There's amateur school plays, community theater, Shakespeare actors and movie stars.

My four year old daughter's drawings which I magnet to the refrigerator,
people who paint for "therapeutic reasons",
commercial artists who design print ads every day for a living
and the master's works hanging in the Louvre.


Even if the creation only brings joy or expression to the artist
(let alone appreciation or understanding)
then it is still valid artwork in my opinion.

To each his own I say.


Could the fact that Mr. Berlin owns a music school have anything to do with his remarks?
Mmmmmaybe...

Edited March 16, 2009 by GonzoBass

[Eight]

[quote name='The Funk' post='436304' date='Mar 16 2009, 05:04 PM']I also think it's disgraceful how little emphasis any of these institutions place on rhythm and melody.[/quote]
Melody is dead, didn't you get the memo? Pretty soon it will be removed from tuition/theory books and those titles that talk only about melody e.g. Melody - How To Write Great Tunes (by Rikky Rooksby) will be burnt.

Anyway...

I'm no fan of this Berlin guy. Seems like a jumped up git to me - but I have some sympathy for his point of view there.

If you want to [try to] understand how music works beyond the confines of your own instrument and ability, then theory is for you. It is afterall, what theory is all about. Otherwise, do what makes you happy - and just hope that in the future you don't need to try and learn it all in a hurry. Bite size pieces = easy, the whole caboodle in one go = not easy.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

I think JB is a little misunderstood at times(like most of us )
When I used to look at some of his columns in the Bass Player mag years ago,
I get the impression he was being very realistic ,no nonsense kinda guy.

He used to diss ''gimmicky '' things like those spring finger strengthening excercisers.
He is also very critical of the ''bass tricks'' and just emphasises the fact
that dedication and practice is where it's all at.

I think that he doesn't say anything different than say Billy Sheehan or many other great players.

I agree tho' with what most of you have said Fun is where it's at,whether you play 3 notes or 1000 a minute etc.

Edited March 16, 2009 by RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE

[urb]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='436276' date='Mar 16 2009, 04:45 PM']Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-theory, but I also think that to many, bass is just a hobby. JB ssems to think that everyone wants to be him. I don't. If I was bitching that I couldn't get any session work, but couldn't be bothered to learn to read, then he'd have a point.[/quote]

Great thread - my one point to add is that many people assume that learning any kind of theory or getting good at reading will somehow remove every ounce of soul from you etc - which I know is a bit of a moot point when it comes to JB's extremely notey playing - but you can still groove plenty hard or play really simply WITH a good grounding in music but instead of just being able to do that you should (in theory ) be able to do a whole lot more as well.

Anyway - each to their own - JB makes things very black and white in his world and life's too short to really dismiss all the untrained musicians out there making exceptional music - or the exceptional players making terrible music! Broadening your listening habits does help I think to actually give you an idea of what is just plain 'good' music and what is 'bad' - I think I can tell but hey I never said everything I listen to has to be liked by anyone other than me!

M

[Jase]

Mail him your thoughts...he's always got a blog on the go

[XB26354]

I've always thought that he talks a lot of sense about music education, even back when he had a column in Bass Player. Learning any instrument to a high level takes a lot of hard work, but even more sense about the right things to learn. The issue I have is that while he has a scary level of ability, both musical and technical, a lot of the music I've heard him make turns me right off. He also seems to describe things in very black an white terms as urb mentioned, and seems fond of picking arguments with other bass players. He is somewhat anachronistic nowadays - who is going to buy a Jeff Berlin CD if it came out anyway?

[Bilbo]

The probelm I have with many of the critics of this kind of learning is that many of them are missing a trick.

Some of the techniques that are used by some of the bass stuntmen we all love to hate take a lot of time and energy to develop - in some cases years of dedicated practice. I think JBs (and others) point is that some of this energy and TIME should be redirected into concerted practice of the established tools of music and not running up dead ends. Learning a zillion individual licks probably takes just as long as learning the basic facts about music theory and learning to read dots. I think that there are a lot of players out there who WANT to learn how to play but, without good teachers, are wasting time, sometimes years, chasing the wrong things - not in a subjective sense but in an objective one. Learning to execute a Simpsons/Super Mario Brothers theme with two hands is a great party trick but surely that time could be better spent learning something that can be applied in a myriad of contexts and developing a marketable skill.

As I recall, JBs biggest criticisms are levelled at those schools/dvds etc that 'teach' two handed tapping, double thumbing etc. If you look around you at the world of bass playing, these skills really are novelty tricks and of limited value in a practical sense. Its this that I agree with. If I had my time again, I would not have wasted as much time learning stuff that didn't matter. I consider it an obligation to share that insight and to say to young people, don't do what I did, use your time more wisely and be better than me.

[Rich]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='436186' date='Mar 16 2009, 03:16 PM']Also, Jeff Berlin seems to have the view that if your not learning to read then you shouldn't be playing an instrument.[/quote]
Yes I always get this impression from him too.
Well, I believe I'm right in thinking that neither Mick Karn nor Pino Palladino can read a single note. This being the case, Mr.Berlin can take his view and cram it sideways.
He's the Clarkson of the bass world... says the occasional sensible thing, and then makes a cods of it all by coming out with some fatuous blethering crap or other.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Rich' post='437020' date='Mar 17 2009, 11:06 AM']Well, I believe I'm right in thinking that neither Mick Karn nor Pino Palladino can read a single note. This being the case, Mr.Berlin can take his view and cram it sideways.[/quote]

Great as they both are, they are actually quite limited as players (as, ironically, is Jeff Berlin). I think the quantifiable 'success' of certain named individuals is no indicator of the best route to take. It is no more sensible than using blind chance as a justification of the validity of choosing to take the wrong route to get to your chosen destination because others have found it by chance. Relying on the good fortune of others to inform your decisions on how to best manage your own career seems a fools errand to me.

[XB26354]

I doubt very much that Pino doesn't read music. He contributed the very complex part to For Once In My Life to Standing in The Shadows of Motown and I'd be surprised if a non-reader could cop the part really. Mick Karn (who is one of my favourite players) basically had success in one band over a very short period. This isn't really a guide to either learning theory/reading or not, as players of all backgrounds develop their own styles. If I had the time and energy to practise several hours a day now, I would study harmony and arranging on the piano and/or impovisation on sax/trumpet from the start instead of worrying whether I could play slapped triplets up to 200bpm

[Eight]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='437060' date='Mar 17 2009, 11:43 AM']I think the quantifiable 'success' of certain named individuals is no indicator of the best route to take.[/quote]
Agreed.

The argument that so-and-so never read/learned anything/practiced etc. doesn't mean you don't have to either.

If you're reading this, I'm willing to bet you're not a musical genius. In which case, basing your musical education on the activities of 0.001% of musicians might not be the soundest advice. If you're one of them, you'd already know it by now and wouldn't be here reading this thread to worry about it.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Eight