Boss SY-1000 - Synth Engine & Multifx

[Al Krow]

Not sure that this has had it's own dedicated thread, so I thought I'd start one.

When this was announced at NAMM 2020 I mistakenly thought this was just an eye wateringly expensive synth pedal and didn't pay it too much attention. But turns out it does a whole lot more by incorporating a bunch of effects from Boss' flagship GT-1000 multifx - which I've only recently become more familiar while checking out their newly released GT-1000 Core. If that's correct and it's delivering as a multifx, customisable synth engine and with 8 stomp switch form factor for ease of live use in package slightly larger than a Helix HX Effects, I think this could be worth investigating further.

https://www.boss.info/uk/products/sy-1000/

[Al Krow]

@Kiwi don't know if you have had a chance to look at this as an alternative to your C4?

@Quatschmacher - as our resident synth guru, be great to have your thoughts on how you think this might stack up vs the some of the current top line synth pedals (FI and C4 in particular)?

@Woodinblack - 24 to 13 pin convertor a must have or just a nice to have for this?

Edited October 14, 2020 by Al Krow

[Kiwi]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

@Kiwi don't know if you have had a chance to look at this as an alternative to your C4?

Initially I thought it only offered one waveform but I may have been confusing it with another Boss synth pedal.  I can see in the specs that it offers sine,tri, three saws and PWM which is good.  And the 16 step sequencer offers filtering per step which is great.  Very interesting...

[Woodinblack]

Like this thread?

 

Its not a synth pedal, it is a synth. Its the update of the GR (10/20/33) range combined with the SY-1/300 technology, so it does both the 13 pin GR stuff (needing a GK pickup) as well as the SY-1 stuff. As such it is pretty impressive, and if I had the room / bass with the gk3 still on / money, I would  have one right now!

Not sure what you mean about 24 to 13 pin converter? This is a standard 13 pin GK interface isn't it?

[Kiwi]

I have a 13 pin socket installed in my Shuker 6, connected to a graphtec piezo in each bridge so I'm hoping that might behave itself with this set up.   Can't see if it allows hold of one sequencer yet while playing through the other.

[Al Krow]

32 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Like this thread?

 

Its not a synth pedal, it is a synth. Its the update of the GR (10/20/33) range combined with the SY-1/300 technology, so it does both the 13 pin GR stuff (needing a GK pickup) as well as the SY-1 stuff. As such it is pretty impressive, and if I had the room / bass with the gk3 still on / money, I would  have one right now!

Not sure what you mean about 24 to 13 pin converter? This is a standard 13 pin GK interface isn't it?

Thanks Woody - I guess the lower case "sy" was what defeated my search attempt

You're right its just the 13 pin GK interface. The 24 to 13 was this: https://www.joness.com/gr300/bc13_S.htm - but that's for older tech so unlikely to be relevant. The question I should have asked is how vital is the 13 pin GK interface for stuff we are likely to use this pedal for on bass?

On the cost side, as someone on TB pointed out, if I'm thinking of getting the GT 1000 Core (which I as you know, I have been), then for the cost of an SY-1 or C4 on top, you can have one of these but with a synth engine that is very much more capable than the SY-1...at least that's how I'm going to justify it to the missus (and then obviously deal with the follow up question of what's a Boss SY-1? 😁)

All the advantages of presets / disadvantages of loss of immediacy of dials. But as it's also doubling up as a multifx I won't mind investing the headspace involved in PC editing, which this will need, as a substitute for my Helix HX Effects which I've just recently sold.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Al Krow

[BigRedX]

I believe there is a computer editor for it, if the built-in interface proves too fiddly.

I've been looking at one of these to use with my Bass VI, but now I've settled on the Eastwood there are no simple pickup solutions available for the string spacing.

[Woodinblack]

15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

You're right its just the 13 pin GK interface. The 24 to 13 was this: https://www.joness.com/gr300/bc13_S.htm - but that's for older tech so unlikely to be relevant. The question I should have asked is how vital is the 13 pin GK interface for stuff we are likely to use this pedal for on bass?

This is the new GR with the SY bits thrown in which will help correct issues with the GR range concerning latency etc and add more features. So it is logically a replacement for the GR55 (which is a bit old now). As such, the 13 pin GK interface is vital for its use. If you have no plans to use the 13 pin interface (which you can actually do on this, unlike previous ones) then this isn't a box that is worth your time or money, it would just be like an SY-1/300 with a bigger footprint.

This is a synthesiser, not a 'synth pedal' as such, as such it produces midi, can be chained to other synthesizers, and I suspect contains the latest itteration of whatever rolands mainstream synth engine is.

The 24 pin interface you are talking about up there is dead tech that was abandoned by Roland a long time ago. If people want to fiddle around with the old guitars they have to change the interface between what they have and the 13 pin, it is nothing that Roland will ever deal with again.

 

15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

On the cost side, as someone on TB pointed out, if I'm thinking of getting the GT 1000 Core (which I as you know, I have been), then for the cost of an SY-1 or C4 on top, you can have one of these but with a synth engine that is very much more capable than the SY-1...at least that's how I'm going to justify it to the missus (and then obviously deal with the follow up question of what's a Boss SY-1? 😁)

Agreed, once you have slapped a GK3b on (or used your GK capable bass if you have one), you are good to go, and it probably won't get better than this for a good while yet.

 

6 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I've been looking at one of these to use with my Bass VI, but now I've settled on the Eastwood there are no simple pickup solutions available for the string spacing.

No, had the same problem with my Stick, Stick enterprises provide a GK pickup at a slight markup of £OMFG or the other option is making it yourself, both which aren't totally apealing. Actually easy enough to make yourself complexity wise, just the time it takes to do it I know I would never get round to it (and I klnow this as I have a GK3 pickup just there -> waiting for me to do it which I got last year)

[Al Krow]

FWIW - penny has finally dropped for me on which pedals I particularly hate PC editing: it's those that don't have a sufficiently decent on-board display to let you know what parameters you're tweaking or at the very least which patch you're on!

Most multifx's do have a half decent display and, given the breadth of what you sounds you can get out of them, make it worth the time investment (for me anyway) of getting up to speed with another set of PC editing software.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

16 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

...and it probably won't get better than this for a good while yet.

You do know that there is a very high correlation with you making comments like that and dips in my savings? 😁

[Woodinblack]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

You do know that there is a very high correlation with you making comments like that and dips in my savings? 😁

Well, that depends if you want to go down the synth rabbit hole!

I did enjoy playing with the synths, even though I find that on bass they are a lot slower to react then on guitars obviously. However, with the SY stuff in there, maybe they have cracked that.

[ped]

Apparently the computer editor for this is a little slow? But the interface on the unit is intuitive and easy to navigate (like the VB99 which has a computer interface that's excellent, I never use it). 

I have been asking on the Guitar forums a bit more about this, specifically what it offers over the VB99 and it seems, especially given the pedal form factor, that the VB99 is more than adequate for my needs. 

Quoting user Fokof on Guitar forums https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28119.0

Quote

SY1000 > Way More synth parameters and Flexibility wich is it's bread and butter for me BUT (make that an immense BUT ) tracking is not as good as VB99 for OSC synth ,  with either piezo or GK3B
            > I'm really not into amp sims , but from what I heard , it's more accurate
            > Some bass sims sounds better
            > Upright sim is better
            > The insert jack is Immensely useful 

VB99 > Faster Pitch to MIDI tracking ( if you use it )
         > Better and faster OSC synth tracking
         > RRC2 : the FC300 has became a must !!!!
         > Multiband compression 
         > POLYFX that are placed AFTER POLY instrument   ( POLYFX ringmod )
         > The D/A sounds better ( as a soundcard ) 
         > Some bass sims sounds better

So the only thing I'd like still is an FX loop but I have now cracked that with some help of a handy pedal maker who has built me a 13 pin breakout box with 1/4" loop.

[BigRedX]

For me it's the synthesis via signal processing. AFAIAC pitch to MIDI is dead (especially for the bass) unless you employ extra methods of pitch detection like Industrial Radio does.   

[ped]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

For me it's the synthesis via signal processing. AFAIAC pitch to MIDI is dead (especially for the bass) unless you employ extra methods of pitch detection like Industrial Radio does.   

That's more of an extra on these units as there's so much you can do with the built in sounds via GK. 

[Woodinblack]

28 minutes ago, ped said:

Way More synth parameters and Flexibility wich is it's bread and butter for me BUT (make that an immense BUT ) tracking is not as good as VB99 for OSC synth ,  with either piezo or GK3B

So roland have made the tracking worse than the system they used 12 years ago? Really? that is a bit unforgivable.

Although I thought the VB99 only did pitch to midi for output, and the processing was just individual string processing (which would obviously not have any tracking requirements)

[Woodinblack]

8 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

For me it's the synthesis via signal processing. AFAIAC pitch to MIDI is dead (especially for the bass) unless you employ extra methods of pitch detection like Industrial Radio does.   

Without the pitch to midi parts, this won't offer anything over the SY300.

[ped]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

So roland have made the tracking worse than the system they used 12 years ago? Really? that is a bit unforgivable.

Although I thought the VB99 only did pitch to midi for output, and the processing was just individual string processing (which would obviously not have any tracking requirements)

Not first hand experience and I believe the user in question has since spent more time with the unit and improved his setup but yes you're right the units do pitch to MIDI output, more of an aside to what they can do via COSM and individual string processing instantly.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Well, that depends if you want to go down the synth rabbit hole!

I did enjoy playing with the synths, even though I find that on bass they are a lot slower to react then on guitars obviously. However, with the SY stuff in there, maybe they have cracked that.

Oh I went down that particular rabbit hole a while back and am still down there...

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Without the pitch to midi parts, this won't offer anything over the SY300.

Apart from small matter of a GT 1000 multifx included? That's the killer addition for me: Boss SY-300 (around £500) + Boss GT-1000 Core (around £620) vs Boss SY-1000 all in one box for £850 to £900.

[Woodinblack]

26 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Oh I went down that particular rabbit hole a while back and am still down there...

No, you went down the synth pedal rabbit hole. This is the synth rabbit hole - it is much more expensive!

26 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Apart from small matter of a GT 1000 multifx included? That's the killer addition for me: Boss SY-300 (around £500) + Boss GT-1000 Core (around £620) vs Boss SY-1000 all in one box for £850 to £900.

Effectively it would be more like the SY1 and GT1000, as most of the functionality of the 300 is duplicated in the 1000.

And you already have a SY1. I guess you get the convenience of it in one box, but I can't see it is going to give you more than just buying a GT1000 would considering.

I haven't seen any demos of the SY1000 used without the 13 pin system. Maybe it would add something, but seems a bit of a waste.

[Al Krow]

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Effectively it would be more like the SY1 and GT1000, as most of the functionality of the 300 is duplicated in the 1000.

And you already have a SY1. I guess you get the convenience of it in one box, but I can't see it is going to give you more than just buying a GT1000 would considering.

I haven't seen any demos of the SY1000 used without the 13 pin system. Maybe it would add something, but seems a bit of a waste.

Not quite. The GT 1000 doesn't have a synth waveform generator, nor does the SY-1, which we (you!) have correctly established to be a synth emulator. 

This does (see Kiwi's post above) and in editable format. That immediately puts it in a different league to the SY-1 and starting to properly compete with the C4 and FI, but with the advantage over those two excellent pedals, of a decent screen UI, and potentially even better tracking. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Al Krow

[Woodinblack]

28 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Not quite. The GT 1000 doesn't have a synth waveform generator, nor does the SY-1, which we (you!) have correctly established to be a synth emulator. 

This does (see Kiwi's post above) and in editable format.

This indeed does *for the synth generated waveforms from the 13 pin interface*, but you won't get those from the SY part, so you won't gain that. Or at least I don't see how.

This is two parallel paths. The SY path is the same as all other SY paths. The waveform comes in and is used as the oscilator base for further processing. The Synth section converts the pitch of each string to a 'voltage' (this is an analogue of the process, it almost certainly is never a voltage, it is a number to a DCO, but its easier to think of it this way), then that makes an oscilator make a waveform of your choice at a frequency relating to that value.

Althought maybe it is smarter than that and now every input from the GK goes through its own SY process, although from the comments above, that doesn't seem likely how it works.

28 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

That immediately puts it in a different league to the SY-1 and starting to properly compete with the C4 and FI, but with the advantage over those two excellent pedals, of a decent screen UI, and potentially even better tracking. 

No, what it is is up to 6 C4s, one on each note with a shared back end.

But without the GK interface, it is an SY and an multi effects pedal.

[BigRedX]

6 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

No, had the same problem with my Stick, Stick enterprises provide a GK pickup at a slight markup of £OMFG or the other option is making it yourself, both which aren't totally apealing. Actually easy enough to make yourself complexity wise, just the time it takes to do it I know I would never get round to it (and I klnow this as I have a GK3 pickup just there -> waiting for me to do it which I got last year)

I've been recommended two solutions form US-based companies that properly address the string-spacing problem without having to DIY. However neither is really a simple retro-fit like the Roland pickups and therefore would require either routing the body for the pickup and associated electronics or having a new body (or whole bass) custom made.

[Al Krow]

Probably the best demo I've found so far on YT. Yes, this thing is impressive!

@Kiwi check out the signal chain and multi instrument layering at 04.00+ Does that get you to where you need to be on the sequencing front?

 

[Woodinblack]

17 hours ago, BigRedX said:

I've been recommended two solutions form US-based companies that properly address the string-spacing problem without having to DIY. However neither is really a simple retro-fit like the Roland pickups and therefore would require either routing the body for the pickup and associated electronics or having a new body (or whole bass) custom made.

Who are they, I have seen a couple but they are pretty expensive. My friend spent a while taking them apart, because he likes doing that, and has a tray of them, but he got bored of that now, as he does.

Really all you need to do is put the coils closer together: http://chriskingblog.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

[Woodinblack]

15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Probably the best demo I've found so far on YT. Yes, this thing is impressive!

Yes, so if you look at the editor, all the fun stuff is up the top of the chain, with just the analogue guitar signal going through effects at the bottom. It would be a shame to waste that processing by not using a GK pickup.