Advertising for a band member of a specific gender / age group

[mrtcat]

What are people's thoughts on this?

We are an all male 4 piece band operating as a business playing weddings. Our current lead singer is looking to step back from the mic and focus on guitar playing so we need a replacement. Our agents, who are a big company are clear that mixed gender bands are harder for them to sell and also bands where the age range is too broad. Not sure how I feel about advertising for a 30 something male. What would you do?

[Dad3353]

You choose. Go for the money or go for equal opportunities. They're your morals. 

Me..? I'd get the best person for the role, whatever their status, but that's just me. 

[Woodwind]

I don't have any advice, but I am stunned that a mixed gender band is regarded as a harder sell.

[AndyTravis]

6 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

What are people's thoughts on this?

We are an all male 4 piece band operating as a business playing weddings. Our current lead singer is looking to step back from the mic and focus on guitar playing so we need a replacement. Our agents, who are a big company are clear that mixed gender bands are harder for them to sell and also bands where the age range is too broad. Not sure how I feel about advertising for a 30 something male. What would you do?

We recently advertised for a guitarist and singer.

We didn’t specify a gender/age, but made clear mention that we were in our mid-late 30’s and had family commitments to consider.

We had a few younger applicants who were obviously interested but realised that We wouldn’t be sat in the back of a transit up and down the m6 drinking beer and partying til all hours.

Eventually got people in a similar age range and it turned out to be 2 blokes.

We had a couple of women get in touch and send demos, but they didn’t come back with anything after the initial interest.

 

[hooky_lowdown]

Wedding singer wanted? 😉

[mrtcat]

1 minute ago, Woodwind said:

I don't have any advice, but I am stunned that a mixed gender band is regarded as a harder sell.

I think it depends on the style of music you play. We are very much scruffy Indie / rock rather than a smart funk / soul / pop etc style.

[Sibob]

3 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

I think it depends on the style of music you play. We are very much scruffy Indie / rock rather than a smart funk / soul / pop etc style.

But what's that got to do with gender?

Si

[Woodwind]

Just now, mrtcat said:

I think it depends on the style of music you play. We are very much scruffy Indie / rock rather than a smart funk / soul / pop etc style.

I'm still stunned. I didn't know women weren't capable of scruffy indy/rock 😃😂

 

I can understand though that as most hits in the rock idiom haven't been sung by women, less eyebrows are raised in the audience when a cover is sung by a man

[mrtcat]

Just now, Sibob said:

But what's that got to do with gender?

Si

I don't really know and I don't feel desperately comfortable with it but our agents, who have always been absolutely brilliant for us and keep us booked solid with well paid work have been quite clear in saying that they would find us harder to sell as a mixed gender band. 

[mrtcat]

1 minute ago, Woodwind said:

I'm still stunned. I didn't know women weren't capable of scruffy indy/rock

 

I genuinely don't think it has anything to do with capability. History tells us that women can absolutely nail it. I don't know what the reasoning is behind their stance but they really do book hundreds of bands into proper function  gigs every day so I have to trust that they know what they are doing.

[Sibob]

Just now, mrtcat said:

I genuinely don't think it has anything to do with capability. History tells us that women can absolutely nail it. I don't know what the reasoning is behind their stance but they really do book hundreds of bands into proper function  gigs every day so I have to trust that they know what they are doing.

Maybe check what their reasoning is then?

Si

[Dad3353]

I'd imagine it's venues not always having separate facilities for band members (changing rooms, toilets etc...). I doubt that it's anything to do with a band's style or repertoire, merely logistics. They'd maybe have issues with selling a band with wheelchair players, too. Just a guess, though. 

[cetera]

Advertise for what YOU want. If you want a balding bloke with a huge beard in his 60's then you obviously want that for a reason. Bands are products and who is anyone else to tell you YOUR product.

[Lozz196]

1 minute ago, cetera said:

Advertise for what YOU want. If you want a balding bloke with a huge beard in his 60's then you obviously want that for a reason. Bands are products and who is anyone else to tell you YOUR product.

Agree. It’s your band, pick who/what you want. 

[Dad3353]

2 minutes ago, cetera said:

... If you want a balding bloke with a huge beard in his 60's...

But then you going to need the toilets closer to the stage, and a shorter set list; that would be a 'selling' concern. 

[mrtcat]

17 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Maybe check what their reasoning is then?

Si

I think it's less about a specific reason and purely based on their experience of what statistically sells best and what doesn't. 

[Sibob]

Just now, mrtcat said:

I think it's less about a specific reason and purely based on their experience of what statistically sells best and what doesn't. 

So are you looking for opinions then? Or validation that the agents telling the only thing they'll accept is the 'right' thing?
Because it seems that the former probably isn't going to sway you?!

Si

[mrtcat]

15 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

I'd imagine it's venues not always having separate facilities for band members (changing rooms, toilets etc...). I doubt that it's anything to do with a band's style or repertoire, merely logistics. They'd maybe have issues with selling a band with wheelchair players, too. Just a guess, though. 

I'm not sure. Modern venues are all well equipped. I think it's more to do with their experiences of what clients are booking.

[mrtcat]

1 minute ago, Sibob said:

So are you looking for opinions then? Or validation that the agents telling the only thing they'll accept is the 'right' thing?
Because it seems that the former probably isn't going to sway you?!

Si

I'm more interested in how people think we stand both legally and morally when it comes to advertising. The band is a registered LLP and I'm the only non partner so essentially I don't actually get the final say on who we advertise for. My concern is not breaking laws or accidentally causing offence if we put an advert out.

[geoham]

It's a bit of a tough one. You've got your existing bookings to consider first - if I'd booked a male fronted band for my wedding and a female turned up, I wouldn't be best pleased. I'd actually be more sensitive to any change in singer, much more than any other band member.

However, thinking longer term, my own experience is that a female vocalist can generally cover a wider range of material. I've played in bands with female singers doing AC/DC, The Cult,  and Stereophonics etc. and done a really good job of it. The same singers would also do material from the likes of Katy Perry, Jessie J and Tina Turner - not the type of thing a bloke can generally pull off. 

Personally, I wouldn't rule anyone out with the initial ad. Try to get a feel for a good fit via phone, email etc, then audition the top contenders. Also keep in mind that you'll be spending a lot of time with this person, so consider more than just the musical ability. 

In any case - good luck - I've always found singers the most difficult to audition. Most likely to be delusional (or simply bonkers), to call off an audition last minute or not show up at all. I even had a girl bring her 'own guitarist' along to an audition once...

[Muppet]

Maybe advertise that the successful applicant will be the one that has the overall best fit with the current band, be descriptive about the current band and leave it at that, see who applies. If you want to then apply additional criteria once you've got your shortlist then you can do. 

 

As an aside, it gets my goat any band that advertises themselves or is promoted as 'female fronted'....  

[Sibob]

Without knowing whether an LLP is required to follow the same employment laws as larger companies, Citizens Advice Bureau states:

It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against you because of your sex. This includes all employers, no matter how few people they employ. Most workers, including employees, agency workers, trainees and those who are self-employed have protection from sex discrimination at work. This includes:

• recruitment and selection
• promotion
• training, pay and benefits
• redundancy and dismissal
• terms and conditions of work

That said, countless bands advertise for gender-specific members, but they well be 'private' concerns with regards to employment. Don't know.

21 minutes ago, geoham said:

if I'd booked a male fronted band for my wedding and a female turned up, I wouldn't be best pleased.

Why? Would you feel the same if a different male singer turned up?

Si

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Sibob

[Drax]

Bottom line is this isn't about what any of us think is right, either musically or ethically. The agent says mixed bands are a harder sell for them, so that's it. Personally I'd disagree, but they know how they can make money. 

'Entertainment' job ads are not ruled as tightly as ads for regular jobs - where you can't discriminate on age, race, gender, etc - the loophole being the person has to be right for a playing a particular part. It's pretty wooly but somehow how it exists without too much trouble.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Drax

[MartinB]

Legal considerations aside, why not just be up-front about it in the advert?
"We're looking for a 30-something man, because our agents say this will get us more gigs" makes it clear that the decision is commercial. Whereas "No women, teenagers or fogeys" sounds like you're weirdly prejudiced 😆

[cetera]

Keep it open to everyone..... then at decision stage as to who gets an audition just choose what you are looking for.