Advertising for a band member of a specific gender / age group

[mrtcat]

23 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Without knowing whether an LLP is required to follow the same employment laws as larger companies (one assumes so), Citizens Advice Bureau states:

It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against you because of your sex. This includes all employers, no matter how few people they employ. Most workers, including employees, agency workers, trainees and those who are self-employed have protection from sex discrimination at work. This includes:

• recruitment and selection
• promotion
• training, pay and benefits
• redundancy and dismissal
• terms and conditions of work

I totally understand this and my belief is that an LLP is subject to the exact same rules as any other employer so I think any advert we put out will need to avoid stating preferred age or gender.

I makes me wonder how tv / film companies can advertise for a male actor or how the chippendales could advertise for a new stripper. 

 

[Sibob]

4 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

I makes me wonder how tv / film companies can advertise for a male actor or how the chippendales could advertise for a new stripper. 

This would be interesting to look into, using your chippendales example, I'd perhaps suggest that they wouldn't need to specify 'male' because it's simply known that they are an all male troupe.
Not sure about acting, I wonder (without any kind of googling) whether it might be a case of simply stating "we are looking for an actor to play a female character" etc.

Si

[fleabag]

It seems there's just two choices.  Please the management and get a man.   Or please the band and get the best singer for the job, whatever gender they maybe.

If  i auditioned some vocalists , men and women, and a woman had the best vocals and fitted in with the rest of the band, she'd get the job.  I wouldnt be having management telling me what gender of  musician i should be hiring, but thats just IMO

[mrtcat]

6 minutes ago, fleabag said:

It seems there's just two choices.  Please the management and get a man.   Or please the band and get the best singer for the job, whatever gender they maybe.

If  i auditioned some vocalists , men and women, and a woman had the best vocals and fitted in with the rest of the band, she'd get the job.  I wouldnt be having management telling me what gender of  musician i should be hiring, but thats just IMO

All well and good but in this instance the agent brings in 100% of our work. If they are right and then we end up with 20% fewer bookings then the band is no longer a viable business. If we were a pub band or just doing it for fun then I'd agree completely. 

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, Woodwind said:

I don't have any advice, but I am stunned that a mixed gender band is regarded as a harder sell.

This.

I was in a 4 piece with 2 women, 2 men.

Agent said he would expect to charge 20-30% more because of the (his words I hasten to add) "Tit factor"

 

Funnily enough at the next gig the women wore decided to wear more revealing outfits. Made it quite difficult to concentrate for 2 reasons (not those 2) - Firstly they were both very attractive. Secondly the singer was married to the drummer and I was worried about getting a stick to the back of the head if I was caught looking at the singer's bum too often!

[Drax]

Where the characteristic - gender, race, religeon, sexuality - is a requirement of the job (say a shopping centre Father Christmas, or a women's changing room attendant) the ad can legally ask for it.  You could easily see how the agency's request would fall under this. 

The inclusive job ad doesn't stop an employer just hiring who they want for the job anyway.. 

Edited October 26, 2020 by Drax

[Mykesbass]

I have seen elsewhere (probably Facebook) tales of pubs and bookers who will not book female acts. Will try and find links.

[Mykesbass]

That was quicker than expected - when I originally saw this there were plenty of comments to show this was no one off.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tees-42280212

[fretmeister]

Approach it from the side.

"We are a band of mid 30s males...... if you have the talent and think you would be a good fit musically and socially then...."

 

That will cut 90% of the people you are trying to not recruit.

[mikel]

1 hour ago, AndyTravis said:

We recently advertised for a guitarist and singer.

We didn’t specify a gender/age, but made clear mention that we were in our mid-late 30’s and had family commitments to consider.

We had a few younger applicants who were obviously interested but realised that We wouldn’t be sat in the back of a transit up and down the m6 drinking beer and partying til all hours.

Eventually got people in a similar age range and it turned out to be 2 blokes.

We had a couple of women get in touch and send demos, but they didn’t come back with anything after the initial interest.

 

/\This. Nothing to do with equality more to do with being sensible. A 16 year old, in most instances, will not fit with a band of grandfathers, and vice versa. Most older musicians don't expect to make money out of gigging, its as much a social thing as about the music. Its not saying you are not welcome but If I see an add in JMB that wants a bassist for a band, current age range 17 to 19, I would not waste their time or my own by answering. I have clothes older than that. All thats needed is a little common sense.

[Rich]

35 minutes ago, cetera said:

Keep it open to everyone..... then at decision stage as to who gets an audition just choose what you are looking for.

This. 

[uk_lefty]

If an agent has kept you booked solid and well paid I'd be inclined to listen to them, even though it startles me that they've said this, but it's their business and they should know. I just can't work out how or why this would be the case. 

In my sweeping generalisations I would have thought it's easier to find a good female singer than an adequate male singer, and easier to "sell" a band with a female singer.

[fleabag]

47 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

All well and good but in this instance the agent brings in 100% of our work. If they are right and then we end up with 20% fewer bookings then the band is no longer a viable business. If we were a pub band or just doing it for fun then I'd agree completely. 

Thats why i mentioned ' pleasing the management '

Its a business decision,  and  if you lose business because you hire a woman, then hire a bloke

[Silvia Bluejay]

Reading this thread with interest. You all have perfectly sensible points.

I am also surprised that those agents don't think the "tit factor" actually makes mixed bands easier to sell. However, there is also the possibility that clients may go "Oh, no, not another girly-fronted band singing about girly stuff, we want proper rock/indie/whatever for our do."

Both the tit factor and not-another-girly concepts are obviously sexist crap, but we're talking business here, not writing a feminist essay.

I'm baffled and intrigued.

[Nicko]

59 minutes ago, Mykesbass said:

That was quicker than expected - when I originally saw this there were plenty of comments to show this was no one off.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tees-42280212

TBH if a bloke turned up at the pub and started singing I would do Anything for Love, I suspect the punters would have suggested that they didn't come back.

In answer to the OP I'm also amazed that the agent has suggested this.  I've been to loads of functions where the band is mixed  - it depends what your set list is surely?  My last band  (admittedly pub covers) was two guys and two girls and the set list was selected to suit the singers voice.  That made us different from the other bands on the circuit and I don't think we lost out because of it.

[geoham]

33 minutes ago, Sibob said:

Without knowing whether an LLP is required to follow the same employment laws as larger companies, Citizens Advice Bureau states:

It is illegal for an employer to discriminate against you because of your sex. This includes all employers, no matter how few people they employ. Most workers, including employees, agency workers, trainees and those who are self-employed have protection from sex discrimination at work. This includes:

• recruitment and selection
• promotion
• training, pay and benefits
• redundancy and dismissal
• terms and conditions of work

That said, countless bands advertise for gender-specific members, but they well be 'private' concerns with regards to employment. Don't know.

Why? Would you feel the same if a different male singer turned up?

Si

 

There are exemptions in discrimination legislation, for example in acting where gender is essential for authenticity of the role. Whether this would apply to band is another matter for someone more knowledgable than me.

Regarding why I'd be less than pleased at a female fronted band turning up at  my wedding, when I'd booked a male fronted band... For my own wedding, I spent weeks selecting the band. I saw them live, I watched YouTube videos, checked out their typical setlist. I went with the band that I enjoyed the most and thought would be most entertaining to my guests. I'd haved considered a change of vocalist hugely significant, but a vocalist of a different gender may be a fundamentally different band and setlist. In any case, I'd like to be made aware of it in advance of the big day. 

George

[peteb]

2 hours ago, mrtcat said:

I totally understand this and my belief is that an LLP is subject to the exact same rules as any other employer so I think any advert we put out will need to avoid stating preferred age or gender.

I makes me wonder how tv / film companies can advertise for a male actor or how the chippendales could advertise for a new stripper. 

 

 

1 hour ago, mrtcat said:

All well and good but in this instance the agent brings in 100% of our work. If they are right and then we end up with 20% fewer bookings then the band is no longer a viable business. If we were a pub band or just doing it for fun then I'd agree completely. 

TV / film production companies and the Chippendales are covered in the same way that you are, they need a specific gender to cover a particular role. If you are worried then I would consider advertising for someone who can sing in a 'convincing tenor range and deliver authentic versions of... (pick three of the most masculine sounding artists that you cover)'. 

I have played in pub bands with good female singers who did reasonable versions of AC/DC covers, etc but it was never something that I would have accepted in bands playing at a higher level. No matter how good the singers are, you are never going to find a girl who can authentically sound like Meat Loaf singing any more than you are going to find a bloke who can sing like Stevie Nicks. Then add to that the antipathy that agents seem to think that some audiences have to girls singing rock music. To be fair, this isn't as bad as it used to be, but it does still exist in some places and if your band is a business then you do have to take it into consideration (or start doing a load of Fleetwood Mac covers)... 

Edited October 26, 2020 by peteb

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, mrtcat said:

What are people's thoughts on this?

We are an all male 4 piece band operating as a business playing weddings. Our current lead singer is looking to step back from the mic and focus on guitar playing so we need a replacement. Our agents, who are a big company are clear that mixed gender bands are harder for them to sell and also bands where the age range is too broad. Not sure how I feel about advertising for a 30 something male. What would you do?

Dont fck with the formula.

[odysseus]

Blame the agent?

"....Our agent has requested that we audition male singers only..." 

Still seems a bit backward in this era though... I dunno...

[EBS_freak]

And now to address the elephant in the room....

 

...for what gigs?

[Nail Soup]

I'm another one who is surprised at the restriction.

But if you choose to comply with it (and no judgment if you do) I guess the best way is to use the "Chippendales" clause for the female singer.... for the age thing just say in the ads what your age range is - and where you would normally say "but we don't care what age you are", don't.

[mrtcat]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Dont fck with the formula.

This is really the only reason the band are happy to stick to a male front man. The agents have been able to sell the band well for years so why make a significant change. 

[mrtcat]

I should make it clear that the agency don't have any problems whatsoever selling female fronted bands. What they say they struggle more with is mixed gender bands. It's also the same with age groups. They can sell young bands, old bands and everything in between but they struggle with bands that dont sit in one age group or another. 

[stingrayPete1977]

I haven't seen a high end wedding/function band for years that wasn't mixed gender, getting paying gigs for all male scruffy indie/rock bands got so difficult around here that ours disbanded! I've since only been in mixed gender groups. 

[mrtcat]

5 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I haven't seen a high end wedding/function band for years that wasn't mixed gender, getting paying gigs for all male scruffy indie/rock bands got so difficult around here that ours disbanded! I've since only been in mixed gender groups. 

The 15 most popular bands on our agents books played a total of 1941 gigs between them in 2019. Only one of those bands isn't an all male lineup. 6 of them would fall into the scruffy indie category. It may not be selling in your area but across the uk as a whole it's still a pretty popular choice.