Future Impact vs C4 Synth

[Al Krow]

32 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

...but I can unequivocally state that the FI is superior to the C4 for me in all areas that matter.

That's interesting to hear, please elaborate!

[Quatschmacher]

2 hours ago, prowla said:

Has anybody compared the Panda Future Impact side-by-side against the Source Audio C4?

The C4 seems to have the technical edge, but is that right?

From a physical perspective, the C4 is more pedalboard-friendly, though you can spend another chunk of money on a smaller conversion box to re-house the FI to part-mitigate against that.

The C4''s MIDI input is USB, which limits the choice of external standalone MIDI controllers. OTOH, the FI has a 5-pin DIN MIDI, but it is pernickety about what you can connect to it (both computer-FI and standalone controllers).

The the C4 sells at approx £220 whereas FI is 50% more, at ~ £330.

Any thoughts?

Price of the FI is not £330 - it’s €300 which is about £260.

I have and love the C4 but until full ADSR, more oscillator options and a filter that doesn’t cap at 6kHz are added, the FI will always have the edge for actual sound sculpting. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Quatschmacher

[prowla]

Thanks, I stand corrected on price; I took the prices from online prices listed via a Google search as going to the FI page I couldn't tell if Panda's €300 was inclusive or exclusive of UK VAT, but on second look the Panda storefront says prices include tax.

One gripe of mine is that the FI is an awkward size and a lot of the inside is empty space; it can be re-housed in a Future Compact case however: i. the push control knob is sort of in the way then, and ii. it (of course) costs extra money to buy one.

It would've been handy if you'd said they're pretty much the same - flip a coin, but perhaps the technical differences do make a difference, or perhaps they aren't so important for shaping/generating sounds in the bass guitar context?

Edited June 20, 2021 by prowla

[Al Krow]

33 minutes ago, prowla said:

Thanks, I stand corrected on price; I took the prices from online prices listed via a Google search as going to the FI page I couldn't tell if Panda's €300 was inclusive or exclusive of UK VAT, but on second look the Panda storefront says prices include tax.

One gripe of mine is that the FI is an awkward size and a lot of the inside is empty space; it can be re-housed in a Future Compact case however: i. the push control knob is sort of in the way then, and ii. it (of course) costs extra money to buy one.

It would've been handy if you'd said they're pretty much the same - flip a coin, but perhaps the technical differences do make a difference, or perhaps they aren't so important for shaping/generating sounds in the bass guitar context?

I've never really understood why Andras didn't go for a more compact housing. He said to me that not many bass players had made this comment to him, so he didn't see it as a priority. But it seems an obvious thing to do, given many bass players' desire to maximise the use of their PB real estate (and the considerable demand for @GisserD's more compact housing).

However, the work that @Quatschmacher and the FI team have put in over the last couple of years on the software has been superb! The original interface was a PITA and very off putting - but it has been transformed out of recognition and the same can be said about the manual and I'm seriously tempted to give the FI another go.

A smaller form factor and updated chipset (I think the FI came out in Dec 2015 Future Impact - YouTube ) - ideally with a better on-pedal UI / display , would make it a complete no-brainer.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Al Krow

[HazBeen]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

That's interesting to hear, please elaborate!

See comment about oscillators and ADSR below. Big difference.

[Al Krow]

4 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

See comment about oscillators and ADSR below. Big difference.

Glad it wasn't 6kHz cap on the filter then 😁

[Quatschmacher]

Roger has today publicly said that “future C4 products are on the roadmap”. I’ve been privy to this knowledge for quite some time but details are confidential. Trust me, I am making suggestions and he’s receptive. 

[Quatschmacher]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Glad it wasn't 6kHz cap on the filter then 😁

That does also make a huge difference for people who like to manually sweep the cutoff. 

[HazBeen]

6 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

That does also make a huge difference for people who like to manually sweep the cutoff. 

Indeed. 

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

Roger has today publicly said that “future C4 products are on the roadmap”. I’ve been privy to this knowledge for quite some time but details are confidential. Trust me, I am making suggestions and he’s receptive. 

Be super cool if Andras followed suit. Smaller housing, improved Boss RC-5 type display and uprated chip set so that it's not maxed out would all be excellent and keep his product in the game.

[Quatschmacher]

5 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Be super cool if Andras followed suit. Smaller housing, improved Boss RC-5 type display and uprated chip set so that it's not maxed out would all be excellent and keep his product in the game.

It’s already pretty amazing as is. I wouldn’t hold out much hope of an updated FI for quite a long time. There’s still some juice to be wrung out of the editor (if they want to put the effort in). The SA people on the other hand have big ideas and are hard at work on them. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Quatschmacher

[prowla]

I think the form factor of the EH “9” products is about what it should be. 
The C4 layout is pretty much an acknowledgement that you can’t control a synth on the surface of a pedal, so it’s scaled back rather than trying to overdo it. 

[Quatschmacher]

34 minutes ago, prowla said:

I think the form factor of the EH “9” products is about what it should be. 
The C4 layout is pretty much an acknowledgement that you can’t control a synth on the surface of a pedal, so it’s scaled back rather than trying to overdo it. 

All I can say is, wait and see what’s in store. It’s going to be good. 

[GisserD]

16 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

All I can say is, wait and see what’s in store. It’s going to be good. 

i can already feel my wallet draining

[Al Krow]

15 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

It’s already pretty amazing as is. I wouldn’t hold out much hope of an updated FI for quite a long time. There’s still some juice to be wrung out of the editor (if they want to put the effort in). The SA people on the other hand have big ideas and are hard at work on them. 

It's a shame that the FI "v3" unit was just a paint job i.e. the hardware is otherwise identical to the FI "v1". That's still causing confusion with bassists today who are surprised that they are both the same unit and possibly a missed op? However, I appreciate that the software and manual release that accompanied it were a big step forward at the time.

Sounds like it would be worth waiting to see what SA have in store before jumping back in then.

[Quatschmacher]

9 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

It's a shame that the FI "v3" unit was just a paint job i.e. the hardware is otherwise identical to the FI "v1". That's still causing confusion with bassists today who are surprised that they are both the same unit and possibly a missed op? However, I appreciate that the software and manual release that accompanied it were a big step forward at the time.

Sounds like it would be worth waiting to see what SA have in store before jumping back in then.

Really, a shame? The upgrade was huge and has cost users nothing.

Yes, there is a bit of confusion but it’s well documented. Can’t help it if folk refuse to read. (I did see one person who sold his original FI to buy a v3, but that’s the only case I’ve heard of. I’m still surprised at the number of people running really old firmware. I’m doing a lot to raise awareness but Panda’s marketing could definitely do with a kick in the pants.

If you want to play, I’d say get the FI now (it’s a mature product) and the SA thing is probably a way down the line time wise (I don’t know for sure, and even if I did, I wouldn’t be able to say).

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Quatschmacher said:

Really, a shame? The upgrade was huge and has cost users nothing.

Yes, there is a bit of confusion but it’s well documented. Can’t help it if folk refuse to read. (I did see one person who sold his original FI to buy a v3, but that’s the only case I’ve heard of. I’m still surprised at the number of people running really old firmware. I’m doing a lot to raise awareness but Panda’s marketing could definitely do with a kick in the pants.

If you want to play, I’d say get the FI now (it’s a mature product) and the SA thing is probably a way down the line time wise (I don’t know for sure, and even if I did, I wouldn’t be able to say).

Well; v3 was just a software upgrade, which could also be applied to the v1 to make it identical bar the graphic of the case overlay.

So, whilst acknowledging that the word "just" there trivialises the effort which has gone into producing that software, it's debatable whether it was a total product new version.

Had it, for example, included changing the case to a double-MXR size unit (EH "9" units, TC Ditto x2, etc.), it would've been a significant usability upgrade too.

Maybe the next version...

[Quatschmacher]

50 minutes ago, prowla said:

Well; v3 was just a software upgrade, which could also be applied to the v1 to make it identical bar the graphic of the case overlay.

So, whilst acknowledging that the word "just" there trivialises the effort which has gone into producing that software, it's debatable whether it was a total product new version.

Had it, for example, included changing the case to a double-MXR size unit (EH "9" units, TC Ditto x2, etc.), it would've been a significant usability upgrade too.

Maybe the next version...

It definitely was a new version - due to some of the features I suggested, the core oscillator code had to be completely rewritten. However, I agree, it might’ve been a good time to addres the hardware dimensions, though I suspect the units were already still around from the first runs. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Quatschmacher

[Quatschmacher]

@prowla, @Al Krow, @GisserD, @HazBeen, @carlitos71 a similar thing happened with subscriptions on this thread as happened with the FI v3 one after the topic merge. You’ll need to re-subscribe (if you want to).

[prowla]

1 hour ago, Quatschmacher said:

@prowla, @Al Krow, @GisserD, @HazBeen, @carlitos71 a similar thing happened with subscriptions on this thread as happened with the FI v3 one after the topic merge. You’ll need to re-subscribe (if you want to).

I'm still seeing he thread flagged in my notifications, so I guess I'm OK as the originator.

[Quatschmacher]

4 hours ago, prowla said:

I'm still seeing he thread flagged in my notifications, so I guess I'm OK as the originator.

That’s odd as you weren’t on the list of followers, which is why I tagged you. I wonder if the original subscriptions are still present in the background as part of the merged parts then, even though they aren’t now visible. 

[prowla]

I had a brief go on a C4 yesterday and, though the bass I was playing was diametrically opposed to the sound I like, the synth had some great sounds and tracked fine down to bottom B.

I'll probably get one if I see one for a good price, or alternatively (a) wait for the upcoming products (it'd be good to have up/down switches rather than having to get an add-on Disaster Area USB switch thing, or (b) swap my FI for one.

I'll need to check out its ability to do octave up/down (it was doing sub-octave on the B string yesterday) and modulation (tremolo/phase/chorus/flanger) effects on the basic input signal, so I can clear space for it on my pedalboard.

[SumOne]

21 hours ago, prowla said:

I had a brief go on a C4 yesterday and, though the bass I was playing was diametrically opposed to the sound I like, the synth had some great sounds and tracked fine down to bottom B.

I'll probably get one if I see one for a good price, or alternatively (a) wait for the upcoming products (it'd be good to have up/down switches rather than having to get an add-on Disaster Area USB switch thing, or (b) swap my FI for one.

I'll need to check out its ability to do octave up/down (it was doing sub-octave on the B string yesterday) and modulation (tremolo/phase/chorus/flanger) effects on the basic input signal, so I can clear space for it on my pedalboard.

@prowla I realised later that the B string was in-fact tuned to Bb (thought it felt & sounded a bit off- I blame my fading eyesight and relying on the Helix tuner!) so the C4 will track very low even with muddy tapewounds. It does 2 octaves up/down and does a good tremolo and there is a way of doing a pseudo chorus thing but it wouldn't replace a decent chorus pedal, likewise with the phaser/flanger, it can sort of do it but I wouldn't use it to replace them (I use the Helix for those modulation effects though so haven't really looked into it, perhaps others have found ways of making the C4 do them better). Synth, octave and filter sounds are all good though.

Give me a shout if you fancy trading the Future Impact for the C4. They are probably similar enough so I'm not sure why I want one in place of the C4 other than curiosity/a change is as good as a rest, shiny new things etc! I think the Helix covers some of the things the C4 is stronger on like stereo effects and low tracking for octaver  and the FI can get more in-depth into sculpting moog type sounds. C4 is smaller but needs at least a DMC micro

Edited July 5, 2021 by SumOne

[prowla]

51 minutes ago, SumOne said:

@prowla I realised later that the B string was in-fact tuned to Bb (thought it felt & sounded a bit off- I blame my fading eyesight and relying on the Helix tuner!) so the C4 will track very low even with muddy tapewounds. It does a good tremolo and there is a way of doing a pseudo chorus thing but it wouldn't replace a decent chorus pedal, likewise with the phaser/flanger, it can sort of do it but I wouldn't use it to replace them (I use the Helix for those modulation effects though so haven't really looked into it, perhaps others have found ways of making the C4 do them better). Synth, octave and filter sounds are all good though.

Give me a shout if you fancy trading the Future Impact for the C4. They are probably similar enough so I'm not sure why I want one in place of the C4 other than curiosity/a change is as good as a rest, shiny new things etc! 

Thanks for the info. 
I might take you up on the trade - will have a think. 🙂

[Quatschmacher]

3 hours ago, SumOne said:

phaser/flanger, it can sort of do it but I wouldn't use it to replace them (I use the Helix for those modulation effects though so haven't really looked into it, perhaps others have found ways of making the C4 do them better).

Flanger is a variation of chorus so the the C4 doesn’t really do that. However, it does 2-, 4- and 6-stage phasers (though mislabelled in the lists) with ease and these are the same as in their Lunar/Gemini/Mercury.