Neil Young’s albums ranked. Discuss

[Count Bassy]

On 08/11/2020 at 14:13, fleabag said:

 though his time with  Crosby Stills and Nash was  magic on the the Deja Vu  album

And Four Way Street!

[fleabag]

Agreed

 

[Dad3353]

+1 ^^

[leftybassman392]

On 08/11/2020 at 13:22, Dad3353 said:

A passable acoustic player, modest singing voice and shocking electric guitar,

I spent a lot of my youth listening to Neil Young (and have covered a number of his songs at one time or another), and although I don't share Douglas' overall view of the man I do have to agree with the sentiments expressed above. Personally I've always felt that his legacy is in his songs rather than in his singing or playing.

As to the ranking, beyond feeding this type of discussion I really don't see the point.

[Beedster]

8 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

I spent a lot of my youth listening to Neil Young (and have covered a number of his songs at one time or another), and although I don't share Douglas' overall view of the man I do have to agree with the sentiments expressed above. Personally I've always felt that his legacy is in his songs rather than in his singing or playing.

As to the ranking, beyond feeding this type of discussion I really don't see the point.

Even if his legacy was only his songs, that's a pretty decent legacy. Lot of people can play guitar or sing a whole lot better than NY, how many people can write songs of the quality and consistency (I don't mean consistency in style but in quality) of those by NY? I've always felt he's a bit like Tom Waits in this respect, some of TW's versions of his own songs are pretty poor compared to some of the cover versions. As is also the case with TW, there's so many of NY's songs that i listen and think "it would be so much better if.......", but I suspect that's one of the reasons he has the status he does, he walks to the beat of his own drum, not that of popularity or commerciality. 

[leftybassman392]

20 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Even if his legacy was only his songs, that's a pretty decent legacy.

Quite so. Never said it wasn't.

I still think his playing - especially his electric playing - is pretty ordinary though. Vocals can be a bit of a personal thing IMHO; personally I've always found them a bit ordinary too.

Just my opinion, as always in these situations.

 

[Stub Mandrel]

It's curious how threads like this always end up as critique rather than discussion of the relative merits of what's been ranked. Ironic as the diversity of his output probably would generate far more room for such discussion than most.

I find the comment about his songwriting a bit odd. He's always been thrown in a bag with Dylan, and it's indisputable that vast tranches of Dylan's songwriting has been covered by others sometimes producing versions better than the originals.

On the other hand there's not much evidence of Young's oeuvre being eclipsed by cover versions. His success and recognition is virtually all built on his performances and recordings.

I think what's being missed is that Young has always cultivated (and probably a bit arrogantly) a take what I give attitude. He uses an electric guitar primarily to access tones and noises far beyond the acoustic guitar, so he isn't interested in finesse, he's after emotion. I would argue his playing is the exact antithesis of 'widdlywank'.

He's one of those guitarists you can recognise within a bar or two and that alone is a marker of something special.

 

[Beedster]

19 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's curious how threads like this always end up as critique rather than discussion of the relative merits of what's been ranked. Ironic as the diversity of his output probably would generate far more room for such discussion than most.

I find the comment about his songwriting a bit odd. He's always been thrown in a bag with Dylan, and it's indisputable that vast tranches of Dylan's songwriting has been covered by others sometimes producing versions better than the originals.

On the other hand there's not much evidence of Young's oeuvre being eclipsed by cover versions. His success and recognition is virtually all built on his performances and recordings.

I think what's being missed is that Young has always cultivated (and probably a bit arrogantly) a take what I give attitude. He uses an electric guitar primarily to access tones and noises far beyond the acoustic guitar, so he isn't interested in finesse, he's after emotion. I would argue his playing is the exact antithesis of 'widdlywank'.

He's one of those guitarists you can recognise within a bar or two and that alone is a marker of something special.

 

Well said, I played in a band a few years back with a guy who'd spent most of his life trying to emulate NY's guitar tone and said that it was just impossible as it was all about that; feel and emotion, not technique and equipment. 

i think you're right re his songs, now I think of it, and perhaps unlike TW, most of the cover versions are not as good as the originals, Helpless being a great example

[leftybassman392]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's curious how threads like this always end up as critique rather than discussion of the relative merits of what's been ranked. Ironic as the diversity of his output probably would generate far more room for such discussion than most.

I find the comment about his songwriting a bit odd. He's always been thrown in a bag with Dylan, and it's indisputable that vast tranches of Dylan's songwriting has been covered by others sometimes producing versions better than the originals.

On the other hand there's not much evidence of Young's oeuvre being eclipsed by cover versions. His success and recognition is virtually all built on his performances and recordings.

I think what's being missed is that Young has always cultivated (and probably a bit arrogantly) a take what I give attitude. He uses an electric guitar primarily to access tones and noises far beyond the acoustic guitar, so he isn't interested in finesse, he's after emotion. I would argue his playing is the exact antithesis of 'widdlywank'.

He's one of those guitarists you can recognise within a bar or two and that alone is a marker of something special.

 

Could be because some of us don't see the point of such an exercise. For hardcore fans of his music I'm sure it's fun, but not everybody sees it that way, and in line with Basschat's policies we are all entirely free to voice our opinions. Like what I am.

As a (now retired) former professional guitarist and teacher, I might once have taken umbrage at the term 'widdlywank' as an apparent blanket term to describe pretty much any performance involving advanced playing techniques. I could talk, for example, about players such as Pat Metheny (who has also indulged in what might best be described as off-the-planet-wall-of-noise methods, but who has the capacity to play in a wide variety of other styles to a very high standard, including widdlywank).

But I'm retired, so meh!

And in case it's been missed, I never said I didn't like his music. It is perfectly possible to appreciate the quality of the songwriting without feeling the need to set it out in a hierarchical list.

Edited November 13, 2020 by leftybassman392

[Dad3353]

I'm fairly sure that there are, in the entire output of The Beast, at least a couple of pieces of which I could approve. I'm not prepared to take the risk, nor spend the time, looking for these well-hidden gems. My loss, I know, but I'm OK with that. Now then, back to Joni Mitchell... 

[Beedster]

1 hour ago, leftybassman392 said:

Could be because some of us don't see the point of such an exercise. For hardcore fans of his music I'm sure it's fun, but not everybody sees it that way, and in line with Basschat's policies we are all entirely free to voice our opinions. Like what I am.

As a (now retired) former professional guitarist and teacher, I might once have taken umbrage at the term 'widdlywank' as an apparent blanket term to describe pretty much any performance involving advanced playing techniques. I could talk, for example, about players such as Pat Metheny (who has also indulged in what might best be described as off-the-planet-wall-of-noise methods, but who has the capacity to play in a wide variety of other styles to a very high standard, including widdlywank).

But I'm retired, so meh!

And in case it's been missed, I never said I didn't like his music. It is perfectly possible to appreciate the quality of the songwriting without feeling the need to set it out in a hierarchical list.

Can't disagree with any of that, but let's get into the guitar technique thing a bit, because you suggested it was pretty ordinary, fair enough, but I wonder why that matters? From a position of ignorance perhaps I'd say the same of Keith Richards, but for me, like NY's playing, his in many ways defined the sound of the recordings? Goes back perhaps to the old 'Not the best drummer in the the Beatles but the best drummer for the Beatles' thing? If it's a case of, 'I just don't like his playing', that's fine, but 'ordinary' suggests a lack of expertise that I think misses the point of a discussion of recordings? 

[Beedster]

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Now then, back to Joni Mitchell... 

Start a different thread

[Dad3353]

7 minutes ago, Beedster said:

Start a different thread

OK, why not..? ...

Joni Mitchell's albums ranked. Discuss ...

[wateroftyne]

I’m currently listening to the Greendale live show that’s just landed on Spotify. It’s gloriously rich, with loads of space to breathe.

It’s talking to my heart more than my head, which is how I like it.

[wateroftyne]

6 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I’m currently listening to the Greendale live show that’s just landed on Spotify. It’s gloriously rich, with loads of space to breathe.

It’s talking to my heart more than my head, which is how I like it.

...mind, he could have stopped and retuned on Bandit. Dear me.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

Could be because some of us don't see the point of such an exercise. For hardcore fans of his music I'm sure it's fun, but not everybody sees it that way, and in line with Basschat's policies we are all entirely free to voice our opinions. Like what I am.

I think my first post in this thread disparaged such ranking 🙂

My point is that there is worth in those who know the music well discussing things comparatively, broad brush disparagement is a valid view, but doesn't really go very far.

2 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

I could talk, for example, about players such as Pat Metheny (who has also indulged in what might best be described as off-the-planet-wall-of-noise methods, but who has the capacity to play in a wide variety of other styles to a very high standard, including widdlywank).

I decided not to mention Metheny earlier. Zero Tolerance for Silence is just an unlistenable (well, almost unlistenable) mess. On the other hand, I find Lenoise (for example) engaging and interesting enough to stand repeated listening.

But my point is simply don't judge NY's ability by how he chooses to play; he was brought in to CS&N specifically to address a lack of guitar expertise and even Hendrix went on record as an admirer of his playing.

[Beedster]

38 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

...mind, he could have stopped and retuned on Bandit. Dear me.

I remember being in a London gear shop with our then guitarist and seeing an early electronic guitar tuner. He didn't understand why anyone would ever need one. I asked if that's because he can tune by ear. He said, no, he just didn't see the need to tune

[leftybassman392]

1 hour ago, Beedster said:

Can't disagree with any of that, but let's get into the guitar technique thing a bit, because you suggested it was pretty ordinary, fair enough, but I wonder why that matters? From a position of ignorance perhaps I'd say the same of Keith Richards, but for me, like NY's playing, his in many ways defined the sound of the recordings? Goes back perhaps to the old 'Not the best drummer in the the Beatles but the best drummer for the Beatles' thing? If it's a case of, 'I just don't like his playing', that's fine, but 'ordinary' suggests a lack of expertise that I think misses the point of a discussion of recordings? 

I'm going to duck out at this point because:

1. I have no wish to get involved in the to-and-fro that this is in danger of becoming. I simply made a point (or, to be precise, agreed with somebody else's point) about the technical element of his playing and singing (which I'm happy to stand by elsewhere in case anybody needs to know). If I have offended anybody then please accept this apology.

2. Odd as it may look, I have no particular wish to detract unduly from the thrust of the thread. For me it was just a comment about his technique that I happened to agree with. All the commentary since is other people jumping to its defence.

3. Although I've already indicated  (3 times now by my count) that I like much of his music despite my misgivings in regard to some of its technical aspects, I'm not entirely convinced that folks are reading it the way I had hoped.

 

Whatever...

 

Ave.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by leftybassman392

[Beedster]

19 minutes ago, leftybassman392 said:

I'm going to duck out at this point because:

1. I have no wish to get involved in the to-and-fro that this is in danger of becoming. I simply made a point (or, to be precise, agreed with somebody else's point) about the technical element of his playing and singing (which I'm happy to stand by elsewhere in case anybody needs to know). If I have offended anybody then please accept this apology.

2. Odd as it may look, I have no particular wish to detract unduly from the thrust of the thread. For me it was just a comment about his technique that I happened to agree with. All the commentary since is other people jumping to its defence.

3. Although I've already indicated  (3 times now by my count) that I like much of his music despite my misgivings in regard to some of its technical aspects, I'm not entirely convinced that folks are reading it the way I had hoped.

 

Whatever...

 

Ave.

 

Mate, having started by saying I agreed with what you’d said, I asked a totally honest question about the importance of technique, how do you get to toys out of cot from there? 

[Beedster]

4 hours ago, Beedster said:

Mate, having started by saying I agreed with what you’d said, I asked a totally honest question about the importance of technique?

Reason I'm interested in this is that I find that nearly all guitarists I play with these days are pitch and technique perfect - with one key exception who whilst he wouldn't be flattered as to why, is still my favourite guitarist to play music with - but lacking in perhaps the thing that players like NY and Richards bring to a recording? But with NY's stuff it's not just his playing, it's the difference between the Crazy Horse recordings and those with the Nashville session players, the former had a feel but less technique, the latter had technique but less feel? 

[Stub Mandrel]

Curious timing:

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/neil-young-six-best-guitar-solos/amp/

[wateroftyne]

13 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Curious timing:

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/neil-young-six-best-guitar-solos/amp/

Cinnamon Girl should be #1, and it’s not even in the list.

[Beedster]

The intro to the 'Greatest Guitar Solos' link was pretty much my thinking. 

 

 

And I would certainly put Clapton in the high technique low emotion bracket, and possibly Harrison to be honest

Edited November 14, 2020 by Beedster

[Beedster]

4 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Cinnamon Girl should be #1, and it’s not even in the list.

Shh, or someone will come along and remind us of the futility of rankings

[Stub Mandrel]

7 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Cinnamon Girl should be #1, and it’s not even in the list.

No mention of Powderfinger which is possibly my personal favourite.

<Edit> Just spent 10 minutes blatting away a bassline to those two 🙂

Edited November 14, 2020 by Stub Mandrel