Singing technique and stuff about how you sing

[police squad]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Following this with interest. I've nothing to offer in the way of tips, I'm hoping to learn. I always thought I couldn't sing and I still don't do much but with band members desperately searching around for someone to do something to support the song I've very tentatively given it a go.

By describing myself as a non-singer I mean awful. I was told not to sing in assemblies or lessons as a child. My own kids fall around laughing at my attempts to sing and I had nothing but negative comments for 50 years at least. 

However I discovered I could hold a note with decent stage monitors. It's not a nice sound but it is in tune. I started off with one chorus and one song. No-one threw anything and my duo partner was encouraging and gradually I've added in bits. The moral of the story is that it gets easier with practice, I only do backing vocals, my range isn't great and for some reason I struggle with songs in E or B, also vowel sounds. On a good day I can sing in tune without monitors but only songs I've practiced. I've never thought of singing as a learned skill, I assumed you had to have some talent and I know most people find it easier than I do but when I do sing the audience join in and when I don't we get less of a response. Give it a go if you are a non singer, wherever you are at you can improve.

It's an instrument and it needs practice to get right.

Good on you for persevering though, it does get easier (monitors really do make a difference)

[Acebassmusic]

1 hour ago, police squad said:

It's an instrument and it needs practice to get right.

Good on you for persevering though, it does get easier (monitors really do make a difference)

I think that's a very good point that many people forget: It's an instrument and you need to practice regularly.

The first time you picked up the bass were you a virtuoso? No, me neither....so why do we expect to be able to open our mouths and sing well with no prior work?

@Phil Starr said " My own kids fall around laughing at my attempts to sing and I had nothing but negative comments for 50 years at least. " Yip, been there. 8 years of someone making little negative comments every practice about my harmonies etc tends to undermine your confidence bit by bit. (They wanted to take on more lead vocal duties and we already had an excellent singer. As BL I said no, so I guess there was a bit of sour grapes on their part). Fast forward and I'm in a new band doing harmonies....no complaints, positively encouraged....and all with the same voice! 😁

Singing is a very personal activity and we are usually our own worst critics (hate the sound of my voice recorded etc). I think many of us would benefit early on from singing lessons to give us the tools and techniques to help. Also having someone independent who is going to be positive and encourage us to try even when we mess up and help start giving us the confidence to do more would give us a good start.

There's a thread somewhere on here something like "singers who we like, who can't really sing". There's a lot of people earning a living "singing" who if they tried for a local band would probably be passed over, but when they sing the right song, in the right key and in a way that works for their voice its great. We need to do the same and choose the right song / key for our voice. There's lots of tracks out there that I would love to sing but I'd make them sound more like a "Yoko remix" due to my limitations. 😳😁

 

[Cuzzie]

The above is so true - think back all those years when Aretha Franklin was struggling to get anywhere in the charts, they saw her as run of the mill - went to Muscle Shoals and their musicians and the rest is history.

Your best singing is always in the shower or bath or car by yourself - try and replicate that - that’s all you can do

[Beedster]

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[police squad]

15 hours ago, Acebassmusic said:

I think that's a very good point that many people forget: It's an instrument and you need to practice regularly.

The first time you picked up the bass were you a virtuoso? No, me neither....so why do we expect to be able to open our mouths and sing well with no prior work?

@Phil Starr said " My own kids fall around laughing at my attempts to sing and I had nothing but negative comments for 50 years at least. " Yip, been there. 8 years of someone making little negative comments every practice about my harmonies etc tends to undermine your confidence bit by bit. (They wanted to take on more lead vocal duties and we already had an excellent singer. As BL I said no, so I guess there was a bit of sour grapes on their part). Fast forward and I'm in a new band doing harmonies....no complaints, positively encouraged....and all with the same voice! 😁

Singing is a very personal activity and we are usually our own worst critics (hate the sound of my voice recorded etc). I think many of us would benefit early on from singing lessons to give us the tools and techniques to help. Also having someone independent who is going to be positive and encourage us to try even when we mess up and help start giving us the confidence to do more would give us a good start.

There's a thread somewhere on here something like "singers who we like, who can't really sing". There's a lot of people earning a living "singing" who if they tried for a local band would probably be passed over, but when they sing the right song, in the right key and in a way that works for their voice its great. We need to do the same and choose the right song / key for our voice. There's lots of tracks out there that I would love to sing but I'd make them sound more like a "Yoko remix" due to my limitations. 😳😁

 

This is so true. My first proper gigging band, I was 18 years old, they were in their early 30s. The guitarist sang all these great harmonies, effortlessly. So I decided to copy what he did into my next band and I got (and still am) into harmonies. 

When I see bands using great harmonies I usually tell them how great they sound because the average punter doesn't usually realise it. People love encouragement and compliments on the little things

[Phil Starr]

16 hours ago, Acebassmusic said:

 

Singing is a very personal activity and we are usually our own worst critics (hate the sound of my voice recorded etc). I think many of us would benefit early on from singing lessons to give us the tools and techniques to help. Also having someone independent who is going to be positive and encourage us to try even when we mess up and help start giving us the confidence to do more would give us a good start.

 

This is so true, one of my best friends is a professional opera singer and also a vocal coach. I know she'd love to teach me, she's a generous human and wants to convert the world to singing. I just couldn't cope with feeling that exposed. Not the way I feel about playing bass in front of her even though the musicians she works with are probably just as distantly ahead of me in their skills. There is something uniquely personal about singing.

[ricksterphil]

I am a singer and think I've got a reasonable voice. I was struggling with the higher register stuff so took some lessons with a professional singer based in Leicester (can pass on details if anyone's interested). A lot of my issues were with mouth shape. The more rounded/oval I made my mouth and the higher I could raise the roof of my mouth the better the higher register notes became. You see opera singers do this all the time and it might look weird, particularly when you're singing a rock song, but it works. 

Another thing we did in the lessons was sing a lot of different styles, from Frank Sinatra to Opera and that really helped. Plus I have lots of warm-up exercises, which I do mostly in the car before a gig to avoid looking like a complete silly billy in front of my band and the bar staff.

 

[Angel]

I'm so disappointed that I have such a rubbish voice for singing. I'm 2 out of 10 at best. No range, often can't find the note, and 5 mins of singing in the car and my throat seems ripped to shreds. I love sitting at a piano at home, bashing out some chords (which I'm pretty good at!) and singing along, I just wish I could get to 'average' singing and be able to do it with others, or at a station piano if the world ever gets back to normal. If I used emoticons I'd stick a sad face in now ....

 

[ricksterphil]

19 minutes ago, Angel said:

I'm so disappointed that I have such a rubbish voice for singing. I'm 2 out of 10 at best. No range, often can't find the note, and 5 mins of singing in the car and my throat seems ripped to shreds. I love sitting at a piano at home, bashing out some chords (which I'm pretty good at!) and singing along, I just wish I could get to 'average' singing and be able to do it with others, or at a station piano if the world ever gets back to normal. If I used emoticons I'd stick a sad face in now ....

 

Try the Tuneless Choir

https://www.tunelesschoir.com/

[police squad]

2 hours ago, ricksterphil said:

I am a singer and think I've got a reasonable voice. I was struggling with the higher register stuff so took some lessons with a professional singer based in Leicester (can pass on details if anyone's interested). A lot of my issues were with mouth shape. The more rounded/oval I made my mouth and the higher I could raise the roof of my mouth the better the higher register notes became. You see opera singers do this all the time and it might look weird, particularly when you're singing a rock song, but it works. 

Another thing we did in the lessons was sing a lot of different styles, from Frank Sinatra to Opera and that really helped. Plus I have lots of warm-up exercises, which I do mostly in the car before a gig to avoid looking like a complete silly billy in front of my band and the bar staff.

 

I shall try this stuff out. This is good tips

[NickD]

I have little to offer, as a complete chancer, but I'm watching this thread with interest in the hope of becoming more competent.

I've always copped for BV duties over the years, but nothing that required any finesse, but due to not really being in contact with any good singers, and not having much of an appetite for auditioning random folk, I've been pushed towards lead vocals on our new recording (that we're just putting the vocals on now).

Against me, I have a voice that I don't particularly like, there's not really anything bad about it, I can do in time and in tune as long as I stay within my fairly limited range, but there's nothing particularly notable about it. I also have no real knowledge of singing or mic technique.

In my favour, our producer is IMO a really good singer/guitarist in his own band, runs a busy studio so gets to see a lot of singers of varying quality, and is good at giving quality advice and support (as I found out on our first vocals session). Also, while it's not an issue yet, I find that as long as I've learned both parts well independently, Playing and singing together doesn't seem as hard as I thought it would be. Also, because the songs are mine, they mean something to me, and hopefully I can get that across. 

[police squad]

36 minutes ago, NickD said:

I have little to offer, as a complete chancer, but I'm watching this thread with interest in the hope of becoming more competent.

I've always copped for BV duties over the years, but nothing that required any finesse, but due to not really being in contact with any good singers, and not having much of an appetite for auditioning random folk, I've been pushed towards lead vocals on our new recording (that we're just putting the vocals on now).

Against me, I have a voice that I don't particularly like, there's not really anything bad about it, I can do in time and in tune as long as I stay within my fairly limited range, but there's nothing particularly notable about it. I also have no real knowledge of singing or mic technique.

In my favour, our producer is IMO a really good singer/guitarist in his own band, runs a busy studio so gets to see a lot of singers of varying quality, and is good at giving quality advice and support (as I found out on our first vocals session). Also, while it's not an issue yet, I find that as long as I've learned both parts well independently, Playing and singing together doesn't seem as hard as I thought it would be. Also, because the songs are mine, they mean something to me, and hopefully I can get that across. 

you're the best person to sing them then, I reckon. Take what tips you can from the producer but put your heart and soul into it

[NickD]

16 minutes ago, police squad said:

you're the best person to sing them then, I reckon. Take what tips you can from the producer but put your heart and soul into it

That's what I'm going for. Trying to get something across, to communicate... to compensate a bit for my ignorance.🤣

A lot of my favourite singers aren't what you'd call great singers, but there's something special there. Of course I do love to listen to great voices too, but still there's got to be more than just that (like Sting for example, who seems to have it all).

Hopefully, through the recording process I can develop, and find a sound that's ours, I plan on lots of harmonies so I won't be completely naked. Given everything else I have on, lessons aren't really an option atm... I just need to find one teacher on YouTube that doesn't make we want to punch them!

[police squad]

1 minute ago, NickD said:

That's what I'm going for. Trying to get something across, to communicate... to compensate a bit for my ignorance.🤣

A lot of my favourite singers aren't what you'd call great singers, but there's something special there. Of course I do love to listen to great voices too, but still there's got to be more than just that (like Sting for example, who seems to have it all).

Hopefully, through the recording process I can develop, and find a sound that's ours, I plan on lots of harmonies so I won't be completely naked. Given everything else I have on, lessons aren't really an option atm... I just need to find one teacher on YouTube that doesn't make we want to punch them!

sounds good to me, will we get to hear it when it's done

[NickD]

4 minutes ago, police squad said:

sounds good to me, will we get to hear it when it's done

Only if you promise not to laugh! 🤣

[police squad]

2 minutes ago, NickD said:

Only if you promise not to laugh! 🤣

of course😎

[NickD]

Just now, NickD said:

Only if you promise not to laugh! 🤣

Actually, while I'm obviously joking, that is an issue... When you're not used to singing, if it doesn't come naturally to you, there's a nervousness, almost an embarrassment, that totally closes your throat.

Even just in front of a friendly, supportive producer, and one bandmate, there was a hesitancy, that manifested itself in a physical way until I got into it and relaxed. Back in the mists of time, I probably had something similar with bass too, but that was less exposed.

[police squad]

1 minute ago, NickD said:

Actually, while I'm obviously joking, that is an issue... When you're not used to singing, if it doesn't come naturally to you, there's a nervousness, almost an embarrassment, that totally closes your throat.

Even just in front of a friendly, supportive producer, and one bandmate, there was a hesitancy, that manifested itself in a physical way until I got into it and relaxed. Back in the mists of time, I probably had something similar with bass too, but that was less exposed.

Part of this is confidence. I used to be embarrassed if I had to sing anything to anyone when I wasn't 'on stage'. Not so bad now because I am confident in what I do. But relax, stay hydrated too, try not to eat or drink dairy stuff before you sing as this can affect your voice. I recently had cheese on toast before a gig and it totally messed with my voice/throat

[NickD]

2 minutes ago, police squad said:

Part of this is confidence. I used to be embarrassed if I had to sing anything to anyone when I wasn't 'on stage'. Not so bad now because I am confident in what I do. But relax, stay hydrated too, try not to eat or drink dairy stuff before you sing as this can affect your voice. I recently had cheese on toast before a gig and it totally messed with my voice/throat

I can imagine it's pretty critical when you're doing something at a 'Sting' level too.

I did scour the internet for do and don't lists before the first session, and took it really easy. Water throughout the day and tuna salad at lunch. Even then, my voice was fecked by the end of the day... Luckily the last track required some distortion on the voice anyway, or I wouldn't have got away with that one. I think it's fair to say I was terrified the couple of days preceding it, but I find I'm now really impatient for the next one (which due do all the postponements at the studio isn't until the 3rd week in Jan), and I hope that's a good sign.

[ricksterphil]

25 minutes ago, NickD said:

That's what I'm going for. Trying to get something across, to communicate... to compensate a bit for my ignorance.🤣

A lot of my favourite singers aren't what you'd call great singers, but there's something special there. Of course I do love to listen to great voices too, but still there's got to be more than just that (like Sting for example, who seems to have it all).

Hopefully, through the recording process I can develop, and find a sound that's ours, I plan on lots of harmonies so I won't be completely naked. Given everything else I have on, lessons aren't really an option atm... I just need to find one teacher on YouTube that doesn't make we want to punch them!

@NickDHere's the FB page for the lady who gave me lessons, she's called Kay Moorcroft (I'm confident you won't want to punch her)

https://www.facebook.com/xkayxdaniellex/timeline?lst=100002290243666%3A760012855%3A1605870708

I'm sure she'd be able to do zoom lessons and her rates are very reasonable. If you message her, mention I passed her name to you so she knows you're not stalking her. I'm Phil Hughes for reference

[police squad]

1 minute ago, NickD said:

I can imagine it's pretty critical when you're doing something at a 'Sting' level too.

I did scour the internet for do and don't lists before the first session, and took it really easy. Water throughout the day and tuna salad at lunch. Even then, my voice was fecked by the end of the day... Luckily the last track required some distortion on the voice anyway, or I wouldn't have got away with that one. I think it's fair to say I was terrified the couple of days preceding it, but I find I'm now really impatient for the next one (which due do all the postponements at the studio isn't until the 3rd week in Jan), and I hope that's a good sign.

Also, with ref to the Sting stuff, I did a Policed gig in March and really struggled. Not match fit, cramp in my picking hand, couldn't hit the highest notes.

Fast forward to my next Policed gig, which was in late August (outside). I had lost just over a stone and my voice was back. I had put on a bit of weight (it's because I drink too much) but decided to lose a few pounds. It does make a massive difference, I can't actually believe it but it does.

Also, I've become really relaxed with it. It's taken me 30 years to stop stressing at gigs. Time to start........how long is the first set...............everyone ready for the 2nd set..........what time to finish..........song list....etc etc. Now i just don't care about that stuff.. Just get on with it, makes a difference

 

If you're looking forward to the next session, you've got it sussed I reckon. Keep practicing and your voice will strengthen. You can't go to the gym and lift loads of weights etc without some aches and pains

[NickD]

6 minutes ago, ricksterphil said:

@NickDHere's the FB page for the lady who gave me lessons, she's called Kay Moorcroft (I'm confident you won't want to punch her)

https://www.facebook.com/xkayxdaniellex/timeline?lst=100002290243666%3A760012855%3A1605870708

I'm sure she'd be able to do zoom lessons and her rates are very reasonable. If you message her, mention I passed her name to you so she knows you're not stalking her. I'm Phil Hughes for reference

Thanks Phil, I'll take a look!

[NickD]

5 minutes ago, police squad said:

Also, with ref to the Sting stuff, I did a Policed gig in March and really struggled. Not match fit, cramp in my picking hand, couldn't hit the highest notes.

Fast forward to my next Policed gig, which was in late August (outside). I had lost just over a stone and my voice was back. I had put on a bit of weight (it's because I drink too much) but decided to lose a few pounds. It does make a massive difference, I can't actually believe it but it does.

Also, I've become really relaxed with it. It's taken me 30 years to stop stressing at gigs. Time to start........how long is the first set...............everyone ready for the 2nd set..........what time to finish..........song list....etc etc. Now i just don't care about that stuff.. Just get on with it, makes a difference

 

If you're looking forward to the next session, you've got it sussed I reckon. Keep practicing and your voice will strengthen. You can't go to the gym and lift loads of weights etc without some aches and pains

It was nice to be able to turn it up, so to speak. Our walls are paper thin so any demo stuff I do at home is practically at whisper level, and sounds crap. I think that was part of my apprehension. Getting into the studio and being able to go for it a bit... well it wasn't perfect, but it was 10 times better than I'd expected it to be from the demos. I've started practicing in the car on the way back from dropping the Mrs off in the mornings. I must look like a loon. 

[police squad]

1 hour ago, NickD said:

It was nice to be able to turn it up, so to speak. Our walls are paper thin so any demo stuff I do at home is practically at whisper level, and sounds crap. I think that was part of my apprehension. Getting into the studio and being able to go for it a bit... well it wasn't perfect, but it was 10 times better than I'd expected it to be from the demos. I've started practicing in the car on the way back from dropping the Mrs off in the mornings. I must look like a loon. 

great place to sing, in a car. I do it often when I'm learning stuff. I also used to sing along with stuff I was learning whilst walking the dog!!

[Nail Soup]

5 minutes ago, police squad said:

great place to sing, in a car. I do it often when I'm learning stuff. I also used to sing along with stuff I was learning whilst walking the dog!!

Good place for a demo listen to home recordings too. Usually I can’t play out loud at home.