Some VERY good news at last - live music back by the Spring?

[BigRedX]

But as has been said in the other thread on this subject it doesn't address the issue of carnets for equipment and merchandise, which is just as important.

[taunton-hobbit]

47 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

But as has been said in the other thread on this subject it doesn't address the issue of carnets for equipment and merchandise, which is just as important.

No, but it's a start .............

😎

[Beedster]

Haven't gigged in two years, four gigs in a week coming up, two outdoors which is nice

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, peteb said:

I have just seen the Guardian article about this. Great news, especially for some of my friends who work / play tours in Europe for a living. 

 

Just shows what a bit of lobbying can do...!

 

Indeed - heavy lobying by a few powerful people and you get something which is a pale shadow of what you had 8 months ago back, result!

[peteb]

14 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Indeed - heavy lobying by a few powerful people and you get something which is a pale shadow of what you had 8 months ago back, result!

I'm not disagreeing, but it is a start and might keep some people in work

[Al Krow]

This makes for worrying reading...Music’s great vaccine divide: the rockers who refuse to get the jab (telegraph.co.uk)

 

Particularly when reading about too many anti-vaxxers who are very sadly paying the ultimate price for their misplaced beliefs.

[Cuzzie]

8 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

This makes for worrying reading...Music’s great vaccine divide: the rockers who refuse to get the jab (telegraph.co.uk)

 

Particularly when reading about too many anti-vaxxers who are very sadly paying the ultimate price for their misplaced beliefs.

Taking a completely neutral view this is dangerous territory and an inflammatory statement.

People should retain the right to choose what they want as much as possible - much of the world now seems to be going the way of forcing people into a corner and making them do something or a whole myriad of things will be inaccessible to them from work through to entertainment.

 

I am not professing to know all the answers, but, it doesn’t feel quite right the way things are being packaged and it is meandering towards a dictatorship.

[fretmeister]

That Times headline is misleading too.

In other places it's been reported that The Offspring guy has declined on advice from his doctors due to other health issues.

 

He doesn't seem to be anti-vaxx at all, just that he has a genuine medical issue that at the moment seems incompatible with the vaccine.

[Dad3353]

23 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

This makes for worrying reading...Music’s great vaccine divide: the rockers who refuse to get the jab (telegraph.co.uk)...

 

No worries reading that, as it's a closely-guarded Telegraph secret that they'll share with me only for a small contribution or inscription on a mail-shot list. No, I'll just have to remain ignorant, I'm afraid. At least I'm not worried by it; should I be..? 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Dad3353

[peteb]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

This makes for worrying reading...Music’s great vaccine divide: the rockers who refuse to get the jab (telegraph.co.uk)

 

Particularly when reading about too many anti-vaxxers who are very sadly paying the ultimate price for their misplaced beliefs.

 

7 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Taking a completely neutral view this is dangerous territory and an inflammatory statement.

People should retain the right to choose what they want as much as possible - much of the world now seems to be going the way of forcing people into a corner and making them do something or a whole myriad of things will be inaccessible to them from work through to entertainment.

 

I am not professing to know all the answers, but, it doesn’t feel quite right the way things are being packaged and it is meandering towards a dictatorship.

But from the point of the view of the band (or any other business), would you continue to employ someone who is potentially a liability? 

 

I have a little bit of sympathy for Parada, given that he has some medical concerns (that may or may not be justified) about getting vaccinated. But I certainly don't blame the band. I know of someone else in a very similar position who is going to lose his job in the next few weeks unless he has a change of heart. The company don't want to sack him (he's a good worker and pretty popular), but that is what they are going to have to do. 

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Taking a completely neutral view this is dangerous territory and an inflammatory statement.

People should retain the right to choose what they want as much as possible - much of the world now seems to be going the way of forcing people into a corner and making them do something or a whole myriad of things will be inaccessible to them from work through to entertainment.

 

I am not professing to know all the answers, but, it doesn’t feel quite right the way things are being packaged and it is meandering towards a dictatorship.

 

There are lots of things we are banned from doing that infringe on personal liberties - like not wearing a seatbelt or smoking indoors in public or using the N-word (ok that last one's not strictly "banned"). Do you object to those also?

 

Anti-vaxxers putting out dangerous propaganda are putting not just their own but others' lives at risk. If you disagree with that then, given your profession, shame on you. That's my beef. If you are not in any way supporting anti-vaxxers, then fair enough.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

12 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

He doesn't seem to be anti-vaxx at all, just that he has a genuine medical issue that at the moment seems incompatible with the vaccine.

 

Ok - that's a very different kettle of fish! Thanks for clarifying.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

10 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

But from the point of the view of the band (or any other business), would you continue to employ someone who is potentially a liability? 

 

I have a little bit of sympathy for Parada, given that he has some medical concerns (that may or may not be justified) about getting vaccinated. But I certainly don't blame the band. I know of someone else in a very similar position who is going to lose his job in the next few weeks unless he has a change of heart. The company don't want to sack him (he's a good worker and pretty popular), but that is what they are going to have to do. 

I get what you are saying, but personally I feel uncomfortable in making someone do something, which probably in their case is to their detriment as opposed to everyone else?

 

Its the thin edge of a wedge

 

 

[Cuzzie]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

There are lots of things we are banned from doing that infringe on personal liberties - like not wearing a seatbelt or smoking indoors in public or using the N-word (ok that last one's not strictly "banned"). Do you object to those also?

 

Anti-vaxxers putting out dangerous propaganda are putting not just their own but others' lives at risk. If you disagree with that then, given your profession, shame on you. That's my beef. If you are not in any way supporting anti-vaxxers, then fair enough.

smoking affects them and others with passive smoke.

 

Seatbelts save them and someone for example in front of them if you are in the back seat as you may cannonball against them causing an injury to another passenger, or if you are ejected from the car this causing another accident.

 

vaccines are slightly different.

 

And what Numnuts  kNights move thinking chose the N word to some out as a comparator?

You know my race, that’s just crass and ludicrous and a classic cheap shot - of course I am going to object to it.

[Supernaut]

16 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Anti-vaxxers putting out dangerous propaganda are putting not just their own but others' lives at risk. If you disagree with that then, given your profession, shame on you. That's my beef. If you are not in any way supporting anti-vaxxers, then fair enough.

 

Ironic that these are the same muppets who scream "All lives matter" yet won't get the vaccine to protect all lives... 

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

I get what you are saying, but personally I feel uncomfortable in making someone do something, which probably in their case is to their detriment as opposed to everyone else?

 

Its the thin edge of a wedge

 

Thin end?

 

until a few decades ago, we forced women into marriage as the only way they could own property which was their detremement. We forced them to dress a certain way that was to their detriment, and they were half the population. Now a couple of people have got to get a vacine and that is the thin end of the wedge making them do something??

[peteb]

12 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

I get what you are saying, but personally I feel uncomfortable in making someone do something, which probably in their case is to their detriment as opposed to everyone else?

 

Its the thin edge of a wedge

 

 

People are free not to get vaccinated, others are free not to employ them because of it! 

 

Folks not getting vaccinated are affecting the rest of us, by possibly allowing the virus to mutate into strains that are immune to the vaccine. There has never been a similar pandemic with so many people alive, so there is a lot we just don't know, but the vaccines do seem to be working if we can get enough of the population to get it done.

 

My sympathy for the anti-vaxxers is very limited. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by peteb

[Cuzzie]

13 minutes ago, peteb said:

People are free not to get vaccinated, others are free not to employ them because of it! 

 

Folks not getting vaccinated are affecting the rest of us, by possibly allowing the virus to mutate into strains that are immune to the vaccine. There has never been a similar pandemic with so many people alive, so there is a lot we just don't know, but the vaccines do seem to be working if we can get enough of the population to get it done.

 

My sympathy for the anti-vaxxers is very limited. 

All valid points - but from the other side, some are unproven vaccines or modified proven (I know a leap of faith is required). Some will be anti vax - they wont budge, some people may have legitimate concerns about long term effects of mRNA tech we do not know a lot about, forcing them to make an uncomfortable decision by taking away the ability to work and freedom feels uneasy to me - that’s it.

 

Another vaccine example - chicken pox - other countries do, why don’t we? You can get the vaccine privately, and chicken pox can be horrible in kids and horrendous in adults.

 

life has been so poo because of covid it will cause angst, was just a thought…….

[LukeFRC]

59 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

some people may have legitimate concerns about long term effects of mRNA tech we do not know a lot about,

Fair enough. The AZ-Oxford jab is available. 

[Russ]

3 hours ago, peteb said:

I'm not disagreeing, but it is a start and might keep some people in work

As I posted on the other thread, nothing's changed. There's no new agreements and there seems to have been no further discussion.

 

The 19 countries mentioned already had allowances for non-EU musicians to perform there, but most of them are extremely short-term (in one case - Austria - you can only perform there for one day) and there's still nothing that's been done about carnets and cabotage. 

 

[Al Krow]

Interesting that you're up for curtailing freedoms when it suits - the N-word is a good example of something that can seriously hurt feelings. Just as any racist abuse can. We both know that.

 

But with due respect, "hurt feelings" are NOT in the same league as being willing to put others' lives at risk by pedalling a dangerous anti-vax message. 

 

Vaccines save lives and are our way out of this mess; unless you prefer permanent lockdown, destroyed jobs, mental health issues for our children and millions more dead?

 

I can't really believe any medic would be willing to condone such behaviour in the interests of avoiding "the thin of the wedge".

Edited August 5, 2021 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

52 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Interesting that you're up for curtailing freedoms when it suits - the N-word is a good example of something that can seriously hurt feelings. Just as any racist abuse can. We both know that.

 

But with due respect, "hurt feelings" is NOT the in the same league as being willing to put others' lives at risk by pedalling a dangerous anti-vax message. 

 

Vaccines save lives and are our way of this mess, unless you prefer permanent lockdown, destroyed jobs, mental health issues for our children and millions more dead?

 

I can't really believe any medic would be willing to condone such behaviour in the interests of avoiding "the thin of the wedge".

Seriously?!

 

At which point did I suggest curtailing freedom when it suits.

You made some points with examples, I countered with real life examples I have seen and if you really want I can give examples of where a seatbelt was potentially to the detriment - but as ever you are confounding the issue, especially bringing racists abuse into it.

My feelings don’t get hurt, it’s not a term I agree with, that’s it.

 

The problem is when you posted an article slamming the musician, like a poor tabloid press without due diligence and then when someone told you the facts, you have to backtrack, by all means hold your opinion on anti vaxers, but do due diligence.

 

Why as a medic would I not want people to have a free choice whether I agree with it or not?

I chose to go on the Oxford trial and I chose to get vaccinated with it, but that was at least my choice.

[Cuzzie]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

Fair enough. The AZ-Oxford jab is available. 

 I agree

 

but

 

You cannot necessarily choose to have that one very easily.

[peteb]

4 hours ago, Russ said:

As I posted on the other thread, nothing's changed. There's no new agreements and there seems to have been no further discussion.

 

The 19 countries mentioned already had allowances for non-EU musicians to perform there, but most of them are extremely short-term (in one case - Austria - you can only perform there for one day) and there's still nothing that's been done about carnets and cabotage. 

 

Yep, its the govt spinning old news as if something good has happened - nothing has changed... 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by peteb

[krispn]

Vaccines are a big part of the way out of the current pandemic. I’ve mentioned it previously that if big pharma was really keen to fully attack this on all fronts then we’d be extensively looking at the off license use of other medications both in the prophylaxis of and treatment of COVID-19. While the idea of selective pressure related to the long term use of vaccines isn’t new there remains the train of thought that wide spread vaccination during an active pandemic does more to increase the mutation of a virus due to this selective pressure and make it stronger than a % of non- vaccinated individuals getting infected and a mutation occurring within them. By their very nature viruses will mutate and we are all mutagens irrespective of our vaccine status in lieu of a sterilising vaccine. 
 

I’m not anti vaccine I’ve had numerous vaccinations over the years from holiday related jabs to flu jabs. I’m also not going to tow the line and suggest that the current vaccine doesn’t come with risks. I hope that side effects are properly recorded and collated and we can get a picture of how much risk there is so folks can make an informed choice. I hope that research continues into the use of corticosteroids for aggressive treatment of people with Covid as much as I want to see the continued figures in relation to ivermectin as both a prophylactic and treatment in long Covid. @Al Krowthere’s good research figures from India where some states have embraced Ivermectin - Delhi and Uttar Pradesh. 
 

For fear of repeating myself there has to be more than one option to curtail the spread of Covid and I find it interesting that some drugs with impeccable safety records are being held to a higher safety standards than these novel treatments which in terms of longitudinal safety data are still at a very early stage. That’s not to say we’ll see very positive numbers but it’s still early days in terms of long term safety data. 
 

Again it’s great we have a vaccine. It would be even better to see alternatives to those so people who are conspiracy theorists, medically unable or simply reluctant to have an ‘experimental drug’ be given an option.   
From what I can read the areas who have embraced Ivermectin as an early treatment have had few cases and a noticeable drop off in numbers. Yeah there was the research paper from Egypt which looks like it was really badly conducted and reported trial and speaks more of the authors than the treatment being trialled. 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by krispn