Anyone familiar with GSS cabs?

[Martelino]

Hello bassfriends,

I want to assemble a small rig with my Eden pre, a power amp and a 12" cab. As a power amp I was looking at the Baby Sumo (300w at 8ohm), and saw on their website the Single12 cab. I have seen some reviews of the Sumo, but can't find anything on the Single12 cab. Anyone tried or owned one?

https://www.guitarsoundsystems.com/gss-single12coax-coaxial-12-bass-cabinet-c2x25882857

Thanks for any advice.

[Jack]

Theres a local bass player (not on bc) that has a pair and they're great. They seem a little... standard though. So many of the things that Dider makes are unique products, but I suppose you have to do a 1*12" and they're as good as any. 

[Martelino]

Yes, I saw his other products and they're very interesting. I really want to go with a 1*12, so if you mean 'standard' compared to his other designs, that's ok. Just hoping they're better than the other usual suspects. At least they're the smallest 12" I've seen.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I'd be wary of getting the smallest 1x12" you can find. Search 'Hoffman's Iron Law'. 

[Martelino]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I'd be wary of getting the smallest 1x12" you can find. Search 'Hoffman's Iron Law'. 

Thank you, I knew it is a challenge to find good sound and small footprint, didn't know Hoffman's Iron Law though. Just trying to find how small (and light) I can go with a 12" and still have good (clean) sound.

[chyc]

Incredible, two Yodas talking to each other!

I own a GSS cabinet, albeit not the 12" one. As Bill says there's a compromise here. I get the feeling that GSS cater more for the lighter genres of music, such as jazz, samba etc. That suits me perfectly, as does the cabinet I have from them. I'll let you decide if that's your situation too.

One bit of info I can relay is that the two 12" cabinets GSS offer are not equivalent in terms of tone. The one without a  tweeter has a BN12-300S, the Coax one is (I think) an FTX1225. This is what Didier@GSS had to say on the difference when I asked:

Quote

The Single12 and Single12Coax do not sound the same when the Single12Coax' tweeter is completely off: Coax with tweeter off has a lot less high-mids than the standard Single12. Also, the Single12Coax' bass is less percussive / punchy than the Single12's.

I was a little curious about putting the BN12-300S in a box for bass as it seems more used in guitar cabs. I emailed Celestion about it. This was their response:

Quote

The BN12-300S was originally created as a bass speaker, although the way it’s been engineered it’s for faster action rather than for deep bass.

So in short, yes it's a compromise and the lowest frequencies will not be as forthcoming as other cabinets, but I'm personally really glad such cabinets and drivers exist because not everyone has the same requirements. I'm predominantly an upright bassist and having windows rattle during sets is not important to me, unlike fitting my gear into the car.

Edited November 11, 2020 by chyc
s/a F/an F/

[chris_b]

The best 112’s I’ve owned have been Bergantino and Barefaced. My preference being BF. Vanderkley are local to you. I’ve seen many good reports about them.

[Martelino]

2 hours ago, chyc said:

Incredible, two Yodas talking to each other!

I own a GSS cabinet, albeit not the 12" one. As Bill says there's a compromise here. I get the feeling that GSS cater more for the lighter genres of music, such as jazz, samba etc. That suits me perfectly, as does the cabinet I have from them. I'll let you decide if that's your situation too.

One bit of info I can relay is that the two 12" cabinets GSS offer are not equivalent in terms of tone. The one without a  tweeter has a BN12-300S, the Coax one is (I think) an FTX1225. This is what Didier@GSS had to say on the difference when I asked:

I was a little curious about putting the BN12-300S in a box for bass as it seems more used in guitar cabs. I emailed Celestion about it. This was their response:

So in short, yes it's a compromise and the lowest frequencies will not be as forthcoming as other cabinets, but I'm personally really glad such cabinets and drivers exist because not everyone has the same requirements. I'm predominantly an upright bassist and having windows rattle during sets is not important to me, unlike fitting my gear into the car.

True it is, not often two Yodas meet.

Thanks so much for the very clear response. I'm not looking for to much volume either, clean and honest reproduction of my bass is most important, and size. But the difference leaves me with a difficult choice between more percussive punch without- or clarity with tweeter...

[chyc]

5 minutes ago, Martelino said:

But the difference leaves me with a difficult choice between more percussive punch without- or clarity with tweeter...

I should have carried on with the email Didier sent me:

Quote

One thing I could do is to add a small high efficiency tweeter (same tweeter as on the 06B400MKD) to the Single12. As this tweeter is very small, I could quite easily mount it in one of the corners of the Single12 and add a tweeter attenuator or an on/off switch to the back of the cabinet.

Best of both worlds, albeit worlds involving a thinner wallet . You'll have to contact GSS how much that will cost, or even if he's still offering it.

I own the 06B400MKD, and it's amazing. I was going to add the Single12 underneath it, but those 6.5" drivers sounded so good I started looking at the 2x6.5". Unfortunately the GBP then proceeded to tank against the Euro and I've been waiting for it to recover ever since .

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

If I was in the market for as small and light a cab as possible it would be a 1x10 that doesn't cram the driver into too small a space. I haven't seen dimensions for the GSS 1x12, but the FTX1225 works best in a cab with a net volume between 60 and 100 liters, exclusive of the port and driver. Any smaller than 60 liters will give weak lows and boomy midbass. Also, there's a mistake on the Celestion data sheet. It lists Vas as 12 liters, the actual is 120 liters. As for the Celestion BN12-300S, I would not use it for electric bass. The 62Hz Fs is too high, the 2.5mm Xmax too short. There are many tens that outperform it.

[chyc]

2 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

 There are many tens that outperform it.

Absolutely true. GSS (and Celestion) seem to be chasing different goals, and I'm glad they are.

[chyc]

On 11/11/2020 at 09:34, chyc said:

One bit of info I can relay is that the two 12" cabinets GSS offer are not equivalent in terms of tone. The one without a  tweeter has a BN12-300S, the Coax one is (I think) an FTX1225.

Hmm, after a bit of digging I'm not sure it is the FTX1225. The TF1225CX would make more sense if, as the images seem to imply, the two drivers are put into the same cabinet. The weight differential then lines up as well.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

My assumption is that it's the FTX1225. The TF1225CX is 250w, not 300w, plus the 2.5mm xmax and 63.5 Hz Fs make it unsuitable for electric bass.

[chyc]

On 12/11/2020 at 21:19, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

My assumption is that it's the FTX1225. The TF1225CX is 250w, not 300w, plus the 2.5mm xmax and 63.5 Hz Fs make it unsuitable for electric bass.

There's a typo somewhere however you slice it, be it in the wattage or the weight. With the FTX1225 listed as 14lb the full cabinet weight should be ~10lb heavier than  the BN12-300S loaded cabinet. The coax loaded cabinet is in fact listed as 7lb heavier, which is pretty much how much heavier the TF1225CX is to the BN12-300S.

The 63.5Hz, whether you think it's too high for electic bass or not, is very similar to the BN12-300S's 62.1Hz so the cabinet sizes should be similar if designed properly, or at least more comparable.

Edited November 13, 2020 by chyc
s/BN-300S/BN12-300S/

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

63.5 Hz and 62.1 Hz Fs are both too high for electric bass. I've seen dozens of drivers advertised as suitable for electric bass that shouldn't have been. These are two of them.

[chyc]

22 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

63.5 Hz and 62.1 Hz Fs are both too high for electric bass. I've seen dozens of drivers advertised as suitable for electric bass that shouldn't have been. These are two of them.

I don't feel there's any dishonesty on Celestion's part. They publish the spec of their drivers after all (typos and all!)

Are there other drivers that absolutely demolish the BN12-300S in terms of low frequency output purely by virtue of their lower Fs, ignoring the xmax? I think there's no doubt there.  Can you put a HPF on these others drivers and get a cabinet that can do what  the BN12-300S does, and more? Again yup.

I agree with everything you say, but the reason I'm still tempted by the GSS Single12 is that I wouldn't call myself an electric bassist. Given I HPF around (I don't know the exact frequency; I twiddle a knob until it sounds good) 80Hz, I'm grateful that there's a cabinet that does something different by being smaller and lighter than the competition, at the expense of things I don't care about. I used to walk two miles twice a week with a double bass and combo, and still walk to rehearsals and gigs, so those things matter to me. Pretty niche and mad granted, but just to say there are mad people out there.

Edited November 13, 2020 by chyc

[fleabag]

23 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

My assumption is that it's the FTX1225. The TF1225CX is 250w, not 300w, plus the 2.5mm xmax and 63.5 Hz Fs make it unsuitable for electric bass.

Jeeeeez.  2.5mm

I could get over excursion on that TF just by blowing on it

[Martelino]

I mailed Didier and asked about the speakers, this was his answer:

"The Single12coax' speaker is a Celestion TF1225CX while the "standard" Single12 is loaded with a Celestion BN12-300S.

 

All the best,

 

Didier"

[Martelino]

14 hours ago, chyc said:

I don't feel there's any dishonesty on Celestion's part. They publish the spec of their drivers after all (typos and all!)

Are there other drivers that absolutely demolish the BN12-300S in terms of low frequency output purely by virtue of their lower Fs, ignoring the xmax? I think there's no doubt there.  Can you put a HPF on these others drivers and get a cabinet that can do what  the BN12-300S does, and more? Again yup.

I agree with everything you say, but the reason I'm still tempted by the GSS Single12 is that I wouldn't call myself an electric bassist. Given I HPF around (I don't know the exact frequency; I twiddle a knob until it sounds good) 80Hz, I'm grateful that there's a cabinet that does something different by being smaller and lighter than the competition, at the expense of things I don't care about. I used to walk two miles twice a week with a double bass and combo, and still walk to rehearsals and gigs, so those things matter to me. Pretty niche and mad granted, but just to say there are mad people out there.

 

On 13/11/2020 at 00:32, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

63.5 Hz and 62.1 Hz Fs are both too high for electric bass. I've seen dozens of drivers advertised as suitable for electric bass that shouldn't have been. These are two of them.

I mailed Didier and asked about the speakers, this was his answer:

"The Single12coax' speaker is a Celestion TF1225CX while the "standard" Single12 is loaded with a Celestion BN12-300S.

 

All the best,

 

Didier"

[Jack]

This is a fire and ice thing. I know Didier makes fantastic products and those cabs are brilliant. Equally, I know that Bill is a true true expert and everything he says will be true. It's most likely about having different goals. Nothing that GSS make or do is supposed to be the pinnacle of loud or RAWK, it's all a lot more subtle stuff. Maybe those cabs really do have horrible bass extension, and that's the trade off for them being so small.

 

I'll ask the local bassist (he's on a facebook group I frequent) if he'll drop in here. I've almost bought the cabs from him before.

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

19 hours ago, chyc said:

I don't feel there's any dishonesty on Celestion's part. They publish the spec of their drivers after all (typos and all!)

I didn't say they were dishonest, just that they and pretty much every driver manufacturer make recommendations that they probably shouldn't. Putting it in perspective, those drivers would have been state of the art in 1975, when the very notion of an electric bass driver was still new, and for the most part what was available were generic musical instrument drivers that were very much guitar oriented. That was then, this is now, and now if you want a driver that's going to work well in a small cab it's not one with high Fs and short xmax. It will be one with low Fs and long xmax.  A necessary trade off when you do that is lower sensitivity, which you need to compensate for with power. That wasn't an option in 1975, when 100 watts was a lot, and if you wanted 300 watts it took an eighty pound SVT to realize. That's not a concern today, when you can get 800 watts from an eight pound amp.

[Hellzero]

What ? I'm on TalkBass ! Damn, I thought I was on BassChat...

[chyc]

16 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

What ? I'm on TalkBass ! Damn, I thought I was on BassChat...

You'll have to fill me in. I don't understand.

[Hellzero]

Arguing for arguing !

[chyc]

42 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Arguing for arguing !

I don't see anyone arguing here, even on rereading. Apologies on my part if I wrote something that came across as that and I'm too tone-deaf to notice. An argument was not my intention.