Touring in the EU

[petebassist]

There's some useful info here about what touring bands and crews will have to do next year. BTW This isn't a straw-man argument thing about the woes of leaving the EU, it's just a FYI for anyone who hasn't seen the new rules.

 

[peteb]

17 minutes ago, petebassist said:

There's some useful info here about what touring bands and crews will have to do next year. BTW This isn't a straw-man argument thing about the woes of leaving the EU, it's just a FYI for anyone who hasn't seen the new rules.

 

I can't get the link to work

[Dad3353]

It may be useful for those who 'tweet'; for the rest... Not.   Never mind, I'm already in the EU, so... 

[Silvia Bluejay]

28 minutes ago, peteb said:

I can't get the link to work

It's a long series of individual tweets by Howard Goodall which are hard to follow even for those who are on Twitter. Very silly choice of media for divulging his information, I must say.

[Silvia Bluejay]

I can try to copy them one by one in a post, if anybody's interested?

[Steve Browning]

I'm not convinced his suggestion (as I read it) that you need a separate carnet for each piece of equipment is correct either.

[peteb]

1 minute ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

I can try to copy them one by one in a post, if anybody's interested?

That would be very helpful

[Steve Browning]

Here's a link to a specialist carnet business. https://www.boomerangcarnets.co.uk/carnet-document

This is what you need to complete

This is the front page.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Steve Browning

[Silvia Bluejay]

There you are. By far the stupidest method of publishing information I've ever seen.

Quote

@Howard_Goodall

 

Dear fellow musicians, performers, technicians etc. Here’s a thread about how our lives are going to change re touring/working in the EU in 50 days time. Think of it as a kind of Bad News Advent calendar. Here goes 1/

First things first, you’ll need a passport with at least 6 months left on it. And you’ll need full travel/third party/health insurance, since if you get ill or have an accident every penny of your care will have to be paid for 2/

To work or do a gig you’re going to need a work visa, just like you do for the USA. But here’s the thing. Work permits & visas and the conditions attached are a matter not for the EU but for the member states themselves 3/

Yes, every member state controls who comes in and who doesn’t and what the rules will be for work and residency. It’s almost as if the Brexiters have been lying about this ALL ALONG. EU members CONTROL THEIR OWN BORDERS 4/

So you’ll need to get a work permit for every country you’re intending to work or gig in and the rules are often different, as are the rules on eg taxation of that work (eg Spain has a withholding tax, France does not) 5/

Yes, every member state in the EU CONTROLS ITS OWN TAXATION POLICY. We already had control of our borders, our currency & our tax as members of the EU: who knew? 6/

[Fun fact: in Germany, you need to verify a contract to work there, the verification needs a passport, and the new Brexity-Blue UK passports are incompatible with the ID system they use. Cheers, Brexit Govt] 7/

If you play an instrument, you’ll need an ‘ATA Carnet’ for it, to cross the EU border and any within the EU thereafter. This applies to all kinds of professional equipment you may need 8/

 

You get an ATA Carnet from the London Chamber of Commerce & Industry and they cost £351.60 each (or £562.80 for their express 2 hr service) and they last 12 months 9/

 

No No 10

 

If for any reason the equipment/instrument you take with you is going to stay in the EU when you come home (ie you sell/rent it/give it away), you will need a C88(SAD) export declaration (just 8 parts, 12 pages to complete) from the UK Govt. 11/

 

Oh and if your (valuable, old) instrument contains materials derived from any endangered species, eg ivory from elephants, you will need either a FED0172 certificate or a CITES form too, from the APHA Centre in Bristol 12/

 

Remember, you need to get offered the gig in the first place, competing against our creative counterparts still in the EU, none of whom will cost their employer any of this additional expense or bureaucratic hassle 13/

 

Ditto dancers, actors, singers, designers, technicians etc 14/

 

Then there’s getting there. You’ll need your van/haulier to get an EU haulage licence, neither quick nor cheap nor easy (around 80,000 hauliers in the UK are currently after one of the 1,800 available) 15/

 

And crossing from a non-EU country to an EU one by lorry you’ll need to factor in a long-ish wait at the border. Pre-Brexit average at Dover-Calais was a few minutes per vehicle, Ukraine to Poland (non-EU to EU) anything from 1 to 32 hours. 16/

 

[BTW, these rules mostly don’t apply to going to the lovely Republic of Ireland, which we LOVE. Thank you, kindly Irish people] 17/

 

When you get across the channel, turn data roaming on your phone OFF, swiftly, or you’ll get stung for big bills now we’ve withdrawn from the EU’s roam-anywhere deal 18/

 

If you connect with your fans/followers/customers via social media using phone networks, these costs could be colossal, so wait till you find somewhere with free wi-fi! 19/

 

(If you want to take advantage of the EU’s cheap & easy roaming by cannily buying a burner in eg France with a French number, you’ll need a registered French address to do so fyi) 20/

 

Maybe you’ve heard about the possibility of an Artists’/Musicians’ Passport, advocated by creative industry unions like

@WeAreTheMU

, which will save all this bother/expense but as I write this is a dream not a reality. I doubt the words have even crossed Lord Frost’s lips. 21/

That’s because Frosty & his Brexit Overlords in Downing St are WAY more concerned about fishing, an industry over ONE HUNDRED TIMES smaller than the Creative sector. 22/

As far as can be gleaned from the documents published about the negotiations under way, none of the above issues will be resolved in the flimsy deal Trumpy Johnson will try to sell as a triumph. Maybe that’ll change in the remaining days left. Maybe. 23/

 

Final thought. Everything we do as creative artists - everything - is about removing the barriers between people. We do collaboration, reducing conflict, bringing people closer, unity, friendship, enjoyment & shared experience 24/

 

We’ll cope, somehow, of course, but forgive us for thinking that the putting up of all these new hurdles, fences & frontiers is pointless, retrogressive & counter-productive and that the swindlers who sold the empty, nationalist elixir are basically bad people. 25/ends

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[peteb]

6 minutes ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

There you are. By far the stupidest method of publishing information I've ever seen.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that - more of a twitter rant really, but some information in the form of a summary 

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, peteb said:

Thanks for that - more of a twitter rant really, but some information in the form of a summary 

Not sure if he made his political leanings clear or not in that............

[Mykesbass]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

I'm not convinced his suggestion (as I read it) that you need a separate carnet for each piece of equipment is correct either.

Apparently he has now corrected this.

[lozkerr]

1 hour ago, Silvia Bluejay said:

I can try to copy them one by one in a post, if anybody's interested?

I see you've pasted them above, but for future reference, you can follow @threadreaderapp, go to the end of the threader and reply '@threadreaderapp unroll'. The account will roll them into a single PDF, which you can then either download if you sign up to their site, or just display in your browser and print to PDF.

[Nicko]

2 hours ago, peteb said:

Thanks for that - more of a twitter rant really, but some information in the form of a summary 

Yes.  Although I have some sympathy if he puts this much effort into a whinge I'm not sure what his problem with more admin would be.

[peteb]

3 hours ago, Nicko said:

Yes.  Although I have some sympathy if he puts this much effort into a whinge I'm not sure what his problem with more admin would be.

I dunno - everyone I know in his position can whinge about this at great length without any effort at all. It's not that I don't agree or don't have sympathy, but sometimes it helps if you can impart information in as a dispassionate manner as possible. Feel free to rant at length in a subsequent tweet if you want to! 

Edited November 12, 2020 by peteb

[Basinski]

Arrgghhhh!

This makes me so annoyed.

[drTStingray]

Thanks for posting that @Silvia Bluejay and it all sounds very familiar to me. 

Takes me back to doing this at the end of the 70s - I also recall one reasonably famous band at one of the borders in Europe, who were in front of us in the queue having all their equipment removed from their quite large truck, presumably to check against their carnet (in case they were carrying any 'additional' items (eg expensive instruments, amps, or anything....).

Interesting that the political Brexit people would have you believe this is all a myth and 'Project fear' - when in reality their own 'take back control' rhetoric seems to be amongst the hottest air or most powerful eyewash ever created!!! 

I will be very pleased to be proved wrong and discover some actual benefits to this process at some point in the future but I'm not going to hold my breath! 

There will be a number of inland border locations to get your goods checked (4 additional ones in Kent alone) so you may be able to choose where to queue for this process 😉 Unless they intend to have people book slots - if they're anything like my doctors surgery or coronavirus tests, you may have to wait days to actually get through if that's the case - very interesting times ahead (especially if you plan to or have to use the road network in Kent after January)!! 

[Bassfinger]

I'll be lucky to tour beyond the village pub next yeae.

[Lozz196]

A band I know drove through Switzerland - didn’t play there mind - but were still stopped and had to pay some form of taxation (I think it was to do with their merch). To any bands intending on playing Europe, irrespective of political thoughts/leanings it’s best to do your homework and get it right, otherwise it will cost you. 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Lozz196

[Steve Browning]

One important thing missing from all this (and possibly the largest) is the fact that some countries have a nil VAT registration threshold (Netherlands, Spain and Bulgaria) and so a single CD sale will require you to be VAT registered there. Performance is different (a service) but goods are treated differently. Spain requires a non-established business to have a (local) fiscal representative appointed.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Steve Browning

[jimmyb625]

I think what everyone's forgetting, is that Roger Daltrey said it would be ok, so there's nothing to worry about...

[Basinski]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

One important thing missing from all this (and possibly the largest) is the fact that some countries have a nil VAT registration threshold (Netherlands, Spain and Bulgaria) and so a single CD sale will require you to be VAT registered there. Performance is different (a service) but goods are treated differently. Spain requires a non-established business to have a (local) fiscal representative appointed.

I believe you’ll need to pay VAT on any merchandise upfront, on entry to each country you travel through - at least that’s what I’ve been told. You then reclaim what you didn’t sell when you return to the UK. Obviously a lot of paperwork and admin. Given that the sale of T-shirts, posters, CDs etc is an important revenue stream for most touring bands, it’ll thus lead to a reduction in income - time is money, they’ll probably have to pay someone to do it - will it be worthwhile even touring for a small artist? Probably not, especially on top of the other expenditure they’ll now be liable for when travelling. 

We should also remember that these rules will affect artists travelling here too. I personally know quite a few people who work here either academically, as an artist or in both capacities, they’ve already said they won’t be coming, it simply won’t be cost affective, which is incredibly sad, and a huge cultural loss. 

[Lozz196]

My old bands record company is in Germany and we did a lot of gigging there, so I suppose merch wise the record company will field everything from their end, but for other countries, well it’s a lot more to contend with now.

[Count Bassy]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

A band I know drove through Switzerland - didn’t play there mind - but were still stopped and had to pay some form of taxation (I think it was to do with their merch). To any bands intending on playing Europe, irrespective of political thoughts/leanings it’s best to do your homework and get it right, otherwise it will cost you. 

I know from personal experience that you need to pay for a Swiss road tax licence for your vehicle to drive into Switzerland (if they decide to stop you).

Particularly galling in my case as it was a french hire car and I was only going to Geneva airport which is just over the border. Probably driving in Switzerland for less than 30 minutes, but had to buy a six month tax disc.

 

[Twigman]

6 minutes ago, Count Bassy said:

I know from personal experience that you need to pay for a Swiss road tax licence for your vehicle to drive into Switzerland (if they decide to stop you).

Particularly galling in my case as it was a french hire car and I was only going to Geneva airport which is just over the border. Probably driving in Switzerland for less than 30 minutes, but had to buy a six month tax disc.

 

Untrue -it only applies if you use Swiss motorways.

If you cross the border on a back road you are not required to purchase a vignette.

 

I have crossed Switzerland several times and never paid for a vignette as I never used any motorways.

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Twigman