4x8 vs 2x10 or 1x12 cab

[glassmoon]

Hi all

I have to opportunity to scale down the weights of my gear by shifting from a combo to a class D head (which I have) to a neo equipped cab (which I want).  The plan is to get a single cab now and throw in a second when funds permit.

I've been eyeing a Warwick 112 which is at a great price. But I've always been a bit of a 210 fan so that'd always an option. Buuuuuut today I saw something for an Ashdown 408 cab and power handling aside, I'm interested to hear your thoughts and experiences with 4 8" drivers? I remember always liking a Trace rig with a  408 and a 115. Mega sound. Buuuuuut I'm sure the 15" contributed a lot.

Anyway, waffling aside...your thoughts please.

Thank you in advance.

Julian 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There are some, though not many, eight inch drivers that work well for bass, and they have the advantage of much better mids. But in terms of midrange dispersion to the audience and the player as well they should be vertically aligned. Using four eights in the usual arrangement would give the worst possible result.

[glassmoon]

Why would you say "give the worst possible result"? I know a wee bit about sound dispersion and frequency throw, and I've never seen a 4x8/10/12 in a vertical configuration save as a part of an eight by layout.

[casapete]

I don’t know anything about speaker alignment and the limitations of 8 inch speakers etc.  However I do know that the SWR Henry 8x8 cab I had sounded wonderful and was one of the best I’ve played through. One has recently sold on here for peanuts, bought by Dad3353, Douglas to his friends. 

 ( I believe SWR did a 4x8 version too, Henry Jr?)

[chris_b]

Just a thought, but IMO if you are downsizing you can't consider it a job well done if you select a 23kg/50lb cab, like the Ashdown 4x8!!

I know someone who used an Ashdown 4x8 and he made it sound pretty good. I liked it but not as much as my 22lb Super Compact. That's half the weight and loud enough that you probably won't need a second one. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

3 hours ago, glassmoon said:

Why would you say "give the worst possible result"? I know a wee bit about sound dispersion and frequency throw, and I've never seen a 4x8/10/12 in a vertical configuration save as a part of an eight by layout.

The usual configuration is paired 2x10 or 2x12 vertically stacked. I haven't seen a pair of 2x8 vertically stacked, but I haven't seen a 2x8 either. As for why vertical stacking works better, the horizontal dispersion angle is inversely proportional to the cab width. It also eliminates high frequency comb filtering across the sound stage.

[bartelby]

5 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

The usual configuration is paired 2x10 or 2x12 vertically stacked. I haven't seen a pair of 2x8 vertically stacked, but I haven't seen a 2x8 either. As for why vertical stacking works better, the horizontal dispersion angle is inversely proportional to the cab width. It also eliminates high frequency comb filtering across the sound stage.

2x8”

https://peavey.com/trace-elliot-2x8-speaker-cabinet/p/03616940

 

[spyder]

I bought and sent back the light weight version on the Warwick 2x8 cab.

It farted at medium volume and had no deep bass. It was just a midrange cab. If partnered with a 1x15 it might make sense but as a stand alone cab it was very poor, even for the bargain Thomann price.

 

[Phil Starr]

I know it's difficult in the current emergency but this isn't the best way to choose a cab. I won't say size doesn't matter just that it doesn't matter much. You really need to go out and listen to these things, not all 12's sound the same or all 2x10's and the same applies to 8" drivers. There are a few design considerations connected with cone size but you are buying, not designing these cabs.

I guess there's a little worry about the concept of 8" speakers for bass. There is no technical reason why the cabs can't work, sure there is less cone area and the cones are likely to be stiffer and lighter but all the problems can be designed out. You've probably listened to your favourite bass tone at home on the hi-fi and it sounded great, my guess it that this will have been with an 8" or smaller bass driver. an 8 can do a low B if that is an issue for you.

A couple of 2x8's vertically stacked is an appealing concept to me, it's not just weight that makes things difficult to carry, larger cabs still tend to bang your legs and doorways even if they are lightweight.

Go out and have a listen, you may end up crossing 8's off the list just because no-one has yet designed a cab with your sound, with 2x10's and 12's you have more choice but there is only one way you can decide and it isn't on the internet. 

Good luck with the search.

[stewblack]

Hi, I can't contribute to the science, but I have gigged a 2 x 8 vertically aligned, lightweight cab and it was very good. 

TC Electronic 208 to be precise. When paired with a 1 X 10 it was very, very capable. 

Having said all that, your sound is what you like, and might not be what any of us like. 

If I was to recommend a manufacturer it would be the same  as @chris_b - Barefaced. Happy to guarantee you won't regret it. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by stewblack

[Lozz196]

I’ve used one of those 4x8 Ashdowns and it sounded great. Versatile too, as the band whose cab it was had a fairly different sound to mine but it dealt with both very well.

[lownote]

I am running an Ashdown MAG300 head through a Phil Jones 4x7 + 2x7.  The total of 6x7 works well vertically, even in my current rock band. It even handles the low B on my 5 string. The band like the sound and I like the sound. But I believe Phil Jones cabs are quite high spec/quality. As an observation each cab on its own sounds a little weedy, IMHO. Like chris_b I can't  see the point of downsizing to a cab that weighs 24kg, like the Ashdown. Bear in mind a Barefaced 110 weighs 7kg.

Edited November 15, 2020 by lownote12

[casapete]

10 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I’ve used one of those 4x8 Ashdowns and it sounded great. Versatile too, as the band whose cab it was had a fairly different sound to mine but it dealt with both very well.

I tried one of the early Ashdown 4x8 cabs, and was a bit unimpressed IIRC. Quite loud but didn’t like the tone, and thought the heavy weight of the cab somehow defeated the object of the exercise so just went with their ABM 410. Paired with an early ABM500 head, it sounded so much better than the 4x8, and not that much harder to lug around. Haven’t tried the recent 4x8 Neo cabs though so may be better sounding and hopefully lighter. 

[glassmoon]

I wake to so many terrific answers, so I'd like to firstly thank you all so very much.

Secondly, the weight of the 408 at 22kgs is a concern. I have my eye on a Mark Bass 15 which looks like a much more viable option, weight wise. I'm just rather partial to Ashdown.

Secondly, my favourite combination has somehow always been a 15 under 2 10s. Always sounded rich and broad to me. The 408 concept seemed a much lighter version of the classic 410, which I'm very familiar with.

But overall, we're in lock down for the foreseeable future, in one shape or another and spending hours trying gear is not as easy as I'd have thought. 

And then there's the Warwick/Thomann factor. They have a 112, 400w for £170 delivered. You just can't beat that. But I haven't played through a new Warwick cab in years. They old ones were brilliant so it stands to reason the new ones will be too.

Buuuuuut now back to Ashdown. I have just recently bought the Retroglide head. 720w at 4 ohm (probably close to 400w at 8). Fabulous head. Quite bright. But as I really only use a head for its power, the graphic eq would be more to tailor the cab it's attached to. I would like to stay with Ashdown but the only 400w cabs are the older ones which are 26kgs at least. Of the new, and affordable (trés important) range, the 112 is only 300w.

So....thoughts while I mull...

[glassmoon]

Right.

1. So 408, unless paired with probably a 15 might not cut the mustard.

2. The weight factors into this a LOT. Even with the trolley I have planned, I need to rethink that.

3. How "good" are the new Warwick neo cabs....

BTW, opinions on Mark Bass? Not the heads (which I've never liked) but the cabs..

And again, HUGE thanks 

[lownote]

34 minutes ago, glassmoon said:

Right.

1. So 408, unless paired with probably a 15 might not cut the mustard.

2. The weight factors into this a LOT. Even with the trolley I have planned, I need to rethink that.

3. How "good" are the new Warwick neo cabs....

BTW, opinions on Mark Bass? Not the heads (which I've never liked) but the cabs..

And again, HUGE thanks 

IMHO, the MB 15 can be muddy, the MB 12 is a great compromise. Dunno about the MB 10s, although heard others sound good on them.  As to their heads, they're a bit Marmite.  I didn't especially like my LM2 until I chanced upon an eccentric EQ setting which worked for me  and my needs perfectly. 

[Doddy]

40 minutes ago, glassmoon said:

Buuuuuut now back to Ashdown. I have just recently bought the Retroglide head. 720w at 4 ohm (probably close to 400w at 8). Fabulous head. Quite bright. But as I really only use a head for its power, the graphic eq would be more to tailor the cab it's attached to. I would like to stay with Ashdown but the only 400w cabs are the older ones which are 26kgs at least. Of the new, and affordable (trés important) range, the 112 is only 300w.

I've been using an Ashdown Retroglide with 2 1x12 cabs for a few years now and I'm really happy with the sound. 

Here's the thing- My cabs are the old Mi12 which I got when I was using the MiBass 550 amp, and are only rated at 250 watts each. When that amp died, I bought the Retroglide but kept the cabs, and I've never had any problems with the speakers farting or struggling. I've got a very nice Bergantino HS410 sitting at home, which sounds amazing , so I wouldn't use the Ashdown 12's if they weren't performing well.

Just out of interest, I pretty much always put both cabs side by side rather than stacking them.

[glassmoon]

12 minutes ago, lownote12 said:

IMHO, the MB 15 can be muddy, the MB 12 is a great compromise. 

I've always liked the idea of 12s. A mix of 10s and 15s in one swoop.

I like Marmite hahahaha. I like the vintage knob and the power. Nothing much else about the heads. But they are immensely popular, so perhaps I'm missing something.

[glassmoon]

4 minutes ago, Doddy said:

I've been using an Ashdown Retroglide with 2 1x12 cabs for a few years now and I'm really happy with the sound.

See, that's exactly what I would expect. The 2 12s maker so much sense to me.

 

6 minutes ago, Doddy said:

I bought the Retroglide but kept the cabs, and I've never had any problems with the speakers farting or struggling. 

I'm assuming that you have pushed the amp? I chatted with Ashdown and they recommend a lot more power handling. But I guess if you are not hammering them...

 

7 minutes ago, Doddy said:

Just out of interest, I pretty much always put both cabs side by side rather than stacking them.

A la Janek Gwizdala. I like the idea of the cabs side by side, but raised to waist height.

Terrific feedback mate. Ta

[Doddy]

15 minutes ago, glassmoon said:

I'm assuming that you have pushed the amp? I chatted with Ashdown and they recommend a lot more power handling. But I guess if you are not hammering them...

I push the amp quite hard at times. Most of my gigs have PA support, so I don't need to drive it too hard usually, but sometimes I have to crank it and it's been fine. I also use effects a lot, especially octavers, and it's always handled the subs well.

For smaller, or double bass gigs I use a PiBass head with one of the cabs. I've never had any problems, and I've been using the cabs since 2012.

[glassmoon]

OK. So 300w will be more than capable of handling the head. Very good to know. Thanks @Doddy

[Doddy]

4 minutes ago, glassmoon said:

OK. So 300w will be more than capable of handling the head. Very good to know. Thanks @Doddy

I would assume so but if you can, see if you can try it out first.

I don't know anything about the science and numbers, I'm judging purely on my long term experience.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

6 hours ago, bartelby said:

2x8”

https://peavey.com/trace-elliot-2x8-speaker-cabinet/p/03616940

 

As I said, I'd never seen one, but it's not like I'm shopping cabs. That looks pretty good, and it's correctly configured. At first glance it would appear pricey, but as I said there aren't many eight inch drivers that work well for bass, and those that exist aren't cheap. It looks like it may be loaded with Faital Pro 8PR200, which is a particularly good option. 

[Phil Starr]

agree with Bill that the Trace are using probably some version of the 8PR200 http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id=FTP8PR200AP&browsemode=manufacturer

they are on offer at the moment but retail on them is around £200, that's just the speakers of course, by comparison the barefaced super compact has a variation of the Eminence Kappalite in it again around £200 but with a more complex cabinet than the Trace cab. On balance there is roughly the same sort of mark up.

FWIW we ran a blind comparison at a bass bash last year down in the South-West and one of the contenders was an MB12, probably the one you are looking at. It was the marmite cab with about 40% of the bassists scoring it top and the rest really hating it. It was a classic smiley face cab lots of tops and a really warm full bass due to a peak at around 100Hz but not much really deep bass. It was run off against much more expensive speakers like the Fearless 12. I didn't like it much but it would sound good in a band setting and an object lesson in a good sounding cab at a reasonable budget. That's why you have to listen to cabs.

[glassmoon]

I may just sealed things with a 210 actually. It's just easier to go with what you know rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. I do, however, down the line want to look at a 15. Something about that stack that appeals so.

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