Is a cheap, lightweight, min. 200W, powered, FRFR cab, with a flat response at max 50Hz, too much to ask for?

[Baloney Balderdash]

Is a cheap, lightweight, minimum 200W, powered, full range, flat response cab, with a flat response at max. 50Hz, and ideally with some kind of control over the high frequency tweeter as well, too much to ask for?

I would think yes, by far most likely, but I am open for suggestions of something that at least somewhat approximates that.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Baloney Balderdash

[stewblack]

Sounds a bit like a powered version of the Basschat Cab. I think the powers that be are working towards that. 

@Chienmortbb? 

[Dan Dare]

Cheap, light, competent. Pick any two. You can't have them all.

[jrixn1]

RCF 310-A mk4?  £288, 12.2kg, 400W, 50-20kHz.  Perhaps  worth quantifying "cheap" and "lightweight" though, as they mean different things to different people.

[Frank Blank]

Not sure my QSC K12.2 qualifies as cheap nor lightweight, or which of the other criteria it hits or misses but for me it’s been the amp/cab nonsense slayer, it’s bleedin’ awesome.

[Phil Starr]

9 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

RCF 310-A mk4?  £288, 12.2kg, 400W, 50-20kHz.  Perhaps  worth quantifying "cheap" and "lightweight" though, as they mean different things to different people.

I use the Mk3 version of this, it just does what it says on the tin. I think the OP will struggle to get something FRFR with control over the tweeter though. It's kind of the point of FRFR that it has a flat response, but you'd normally use that system with some sort of modeller or pre-amp.

[Chienmortbb]

Yes the Basschat

12 hours ago, stewblack said:

Sounds a bit like a powered version of the Basschat Cab. I think the powers that be are working towards that. 

@Chienmortbb? 

Yes indeed altghough it is on hold at the moment. One other point is the tweeter control. If a cabinet is truly FRFR then the tweeter will not stand out and a control probably would not be needed. In the years I have been using the Mk2 and Mk3 Basschat 112's, I have never felt it too bright and could always get a good sound by adjusting the amp EQ or bass tone control(s).

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I use the Mk3 version of this, it just does what it says on the tin. I think the OP will struggle to get something FRFR with control over the tweeter though. It's kind of the point of FRFR that it has a flat response, but you'd normally use that system with some sort of modeller or pre-amp.

Having heard Phil's RCF I can only agree that it would beat most cheap small bass cabinets when used with a pre-amp/modeller and as stage monitors I suspect they would excel. I will be sticking to my BC112 though with an amp as I built it and can modify it at any point.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Chienmortbb

[randythoades]

Would an FRFR like the RCF be suitable for upright bass too if I used something like a Tech 21 Q-strip or F-Deck?

To play live on upright I use an Ashdown ABM 115 combo which feels a bit excessive so I have been thinking about swapping out my cab for a FRFR cab. I also play guitar and already use modelling straight into PA.

I don't need huge volume as I could split it into PA, just for rehearsing, practice or monitoring.

Would be good to rationalise all the equipment and use the same speaker for both guitar and upright as needed.

[thebassist]

37 minutes ago, randythoades said:

Would an FRFR like the RCF be suitable for upright bass too if I used something like a Tech 21 Q-strip or F-Deck?

To play live on upright I use an Ashdown ABM 115 combo which feels a bit excessive so I have been thinking about swapping out my cab for a FRFR cab. I also play guitar and already use modelling straight into PA.

I don't need huge volume as I could split it into PA, just for rehearsing, practice or monitoring.

Would be good to rationalise all the equipment and use the same speaker for both guitar and upright as needed.

How about a Barefaced Super Midget? I see a fair few upright bassists pair one of these with an Acoustic Image Clarus amplifier.

https://barefacedaudio.com/products/super-midget

[jrixn1]

38 minutes ago, randythoades said:

Would an FRFR like the RCF be suitable for upright bass too if I used something like a Tech 21 Q-strip or F-Deck?

I used an RCF HD 10-A (which is pretty much the same as the RCF 310-A) on upright for a while, mainly for monitoring.  It was a good setup.  I moved to the slightly larger/louder RCF 732-A because I also play five-string bass guitar and occasionally don't have PA support so need to swing the speaker around to fill the room.  In fact I have done that with the smaller HD-10 and it did ok but it was reaching its limits.
 

[jrixn1]

One additional really good thing about powered speakers, which is nothing at all to do with "FRFR", is that most of them are designed with the option to tilt into a 45° monitor position.  I can hear myself a lot better with something in front of me pointing at my head vs something behind me pointing at the back of my knees. 

[randythoades]

Just now, thebassist said:

How about a Barefaced Super Midget? I see a fair few upright bassists pair one of these with an Acoustic Image Clarus amplifier.

https://barefacedaudio.com/products/super-midget

Thanks, I have looked several times at the BF cabs and have been very tempted.

I am happy generally with my Ashdown in the sound department, nice, fat and round, but keep thinking about option of just having the one active cab and preamp so I could run upright, electric and acoustic guitars all through the same one as needs dictate rather than having different solutions for each instrument. Save a lot of storage.

Plus a BF cab and a clean powerful amp like the AI would take me well over the cost of something like the RCF or QSC along with a decent preamp pedal which I could use as a multi purpose amplifier.

[randythoades]

4 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

One additional really good thing about powered speakers, which is nothing at all to do with "FRFR", is that most of them are designed with the option to tilt into a 45° monitor position.  I can hear myself a lot better with something in front of me pointing at my head vs something behind me pointing at the back of my knees. 

That is also true, I would find that helpful. Also the option to place on a stand.

I am glad that others have used an active speaker for upright, I wasn't sure if it would be at all a viable option. The best sound I got for myself was using an old Carlsboro keyboard amplifier in an obscure reheasal room, but just not enough volume, so I am thinking that active PA would be similar.

Edited November 19, 2020 by randythoades

[Phil Starr]

8 hours ago, randythoades said:

Would an FRFR like the RCF be suitable for upright bass too if I used something like a Tech 21 Q-strip or F-Deck?

To play live on upright I use an Ashdown ABM 115 combo which feels a bit excessive so I have been thinking about swapping out my cab for a FRFR cab. I also play guitar and already use modelling straight into PA.

I don't need huge volume as I could split it into PA, just for rehearsing, practice or monitoring.

Would be good to rationalise all the equipment and use the same speaker for both guitar and upright as needed.

I don't play upright (wish I did though) but it should be no different from going through the PA.  the thing is that plenty of people have PA speakers so it shouldn't be a problem to find one to try out. If you live in Somerset for example.

[Jack]

32 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

 the thing is that plenty of people have PA speakers so it shouldn't be a problem to find one to try out. If you live in Somerset for example.

Or Newcastle... 

[stewblack]

or Wiltshire

 

(my singer has my RCFs in her garage) 

[Frank Blank]

Or Southend.

[randythoades]

12 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I don't play upright (wish I did though) but it should be no different from going through the PA.  the thing is that plenty of people have PA speakers so it shouldn't be a problem to find one to try out. If you live in Somerset for example.

Ha! Very goood point... should have thought of that...!!!

I will ask my previous drummer, he has access to a full Yamaha PA with his other band. During these times I am sure it wouldn't be a problem to borrow one.

Sorry if this sounds a bit dumb though... would a standard active PA speaker be flat enough response? There seems to be specific FRFR speakers so I assumed they were different. The higher end ones seem to mention that they would be suitable as flat response but doesn't mention that on the Yamaha DXR for instance...

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

Sorry if this sounds a bit dumb though... would a standard active PA speaker be flat enough response? There seems to be specific FRFR speakers so I assumed they were different. The higher end ones seem to mention that they would be suitable as flat response but doesn't mention that on the Yamaha DXR for instance...

I would guess marketing, since FRFR is a buzzword.

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, randythoades said:

Ha! Very goood point... should have thought of that...!!!

I will ask my previous drummer, he has access to a full Yamaha PA with his other band. During these times I am sure it wouldn't be a problem to borrow one.

Sorry if this sounds a bit dumb though... would a standard active PA speaker be flat enough response? There seems to be specific FRFR speakers so I assumed they were different. The higher end ones seem to mention that they would be suitable as flat response but doesn't mention that on the Yamaha DXR for instance...

All PA speakers nowadays are designed to be as flat as possible, there is nothing special acoustically about those that are marketed as FRFR instrument speakers. There's no magic to speakers for bass either the rules of physics and economics still apply and cheap small speakers are still limited in their bass handling ability compared to larger and more expensive ones. There are still bargains and good value for money to be sought out but if something looks too good to be true it probably is something to be avoided.

All FRFR really means is that they are trying to design something that is flat. You can always tell if music is acoustic or amplified and there will be slight variations in sound between PA speakers, so it is worth trying them and of course deep bass is always problematic at high volumes for any speaker. The fact you are looking for modest volumes with the PA doing the heavy lifting helps of course.

Yamaha's active speakers are really highly rated at the moment. In listening tests a couple of years ago I thought RCF's had a slight edge on vocals and QSC make good kit. My current band use them as PA. I'm not sure that the difference between the best brands would be that obvious with bass. Those Yamaha's will tell you straight away if this approach is right for you.

The only thing you are likely to find is that we have got used to 'voiced' speakers where someone has tried to make the speaker easily likeable. FRFR can be underwhelming at first, spend some time getting the eq right for you before you make a inal decision.

[randythoades]

15 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

All PA speakers nowadays are designed to be as flat as possible, there is nothing special acoustically about those that are marketed as FRFR instrument speakers. There's no magic to speakers for bass either the rules of physics and economics still apply and cheap small speakers are still limited in their bass handling ability compared to larger and more expensive ones. There are still bargains and good value for money to be sought out but if something looks too good to be true it probably is something to be avoided.

All FRFR really means is that they are trying to design something that is flat. You can always tell if music is acoustic or amplified and there will be slight variations in sound between PA speakers, so it is worth trying them and of course deep bass is always problematic at high volumes for any speaker. The fact you are looking for modest volumes with the PA doing the heavy lifting helps of course.

Yamaha's active speakers are really highly rated at the moment. In listening tests a couple of years ago I thought RCF's had a slight edge on vocals and QSC make good kit. My current band use them as PA. I'm not sure that the difference between the best brands would be that obvious with bass. Those Yamaha's will tell you straight away if this approach is right for you.

The only thing you are likely to find is that we have got used to 'voiced' speakers where someone has tried to make the speaker easily likeable. FRFR can be underwhelming at first, spend some time getting the eq right for you before you make a inal decision.

Thanks for this. I understand. I will give them a try over the next couple of weeks. I will try first with the Tech 21 Q-strip as a preamp as it has some really effective EQ and is great for recording.

[BigRedX]

As has already been said cheap and lightweight are relative terms.

My current Helix Floor into an RCF745 is smaller, lighter and cost less new than I paid for the second hand EBS and Tech Soundsytems rig it replaced...

[lemmywinks]

Ran electric 5 string bass, acoustic fretless and guitar through my QSC, via a Fishman Platinum Pro, just reproduced what went in really. I imagine it would be fantastic for upright, the QSC K series have various presets and you can change the eq settings via the jog wheel and screen on the back. They also have handy input options to switch between mic, line and Hi-z inputs.

 

On 19/11/2020 at 12:16, jrixn1 said:

One additional really good thing about powered speakers, which is nothing at all to do with "FRFR", is that most of them are designed with the option to tilt into a 45° monitor position.  I can hear myself a lot better with something in front of me pointing at my head vs something behind me pointing at the back of my knees. 

 

This is one of the main benefits IMO, having a compact, loud and powerful wedge monitor was a godsend for me. Solved a lot of the problems associated with unpredictable stage layouts regardless of the FRFR aspect. I was using the Markbass Club series before this which can be tilted but the small footprint of the QSC gave me even more versatility in terms of where I could put the cab. Could easily fit between the legs of out light stands so basically took up no space and could be pointed directly at my ears.

[Frank Blank]

1 hour ago, lemmywinks said:

Ran electric 5 string bass, acoustic fretless and guitar through my QSC, via a Fishman Platinum Pro, just reproduced what went in really. I imagine it would be fantastic for upright, the QSC K series have various presets and you can change the eq settings via the jog wheel and screen on the back.

I use mainly acoustic basses and initially through a Fishman Platinum Pro, such a fine sound. I needed only the tiniest tweaks on the Fishman to get a bang on sound for me. I stopped using the Fishman only because I began using a HX Stomp which gives me a multitude of options when I’m mucking about but for serious use it just gives me more eq + modelling options. If I’m playing at a venue with a PA I go bass > Stomp > QSC using the QSC as a monitor taking a line out the back of the QSC to the desk. Where there is no PA I go bass > Stomp and take a line out of the Stomp to the desk and use the QSC as backline. Never going back to a trad setup but I play in an acoustic duo so I’m lucky that the Stomp/QSC covers all my needs.*

* Yes, I am aware I have written a variation on this comment on several posts but it’s been such a game changer for me I’m going to keep banging on about it, sorry in advance.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Frank Blank