Distortion vs. Clean Boost

[worship_mud]

Hi there guys, i need some advice...

i started playing in a alternative rockband, rather slowish, heavy-ish, heavy riffs etc, 

now, trying to get a an appropriate sound i use my DG Vintage Microtubes, but, alas, while it has a solid OD sound and  decently does replicate a growling tube amp, it does not do the really heavy stuff. 

i'd like leave the VMT always on to "simulate" a tube amp at the verge of breaking up and adding a distortion pedal in front of it, something like the xotic bb or the DG B3K and

but i fear that this might mud the sound to a rhythmical hissing without definition.

my other thought was to add a preamp / clean boost in front of the VMT, but then i guess i can forget about unity gain if use it to push the VMT to more OD / distortion

I'm not too experienced in setting up and getting decent heavy distorted / driven sounds, so any advice would help

P.S.: another limiting factor would be, that i use a PT nano board and i don't want to switch to a larger board.  the nano is set up like this at the moment: 
Korg tuner ->MXR envelope filter -> MXR octaver -> VMT -> Diamond compressor

i'd love to keep the comp on the board to have a "clean clean" sound and to limit the octaver to a certain degree, but am willing to kick it off the board, same with the envelope filter, which i initially thought would have to make room for the distortion pedal anyway.

[Cuzzie]

When you say it does not ‘do’ the heavy stuff,what do you mean?

Some of the heaviest bands have the cleanest of bass signals underpinning everything. When you play together, what is missing? Often it is better to record it and take a step back and listen as well as tinker in the moment.

It could be something as simple as you are getting lost with the kick drum instead of it supporting you, or playing notes in a different patterN to what you are already with the drums.

What are the guitars doing? HUmbuckers, single coils, distortion etc. What sonic space are they hitting?

I see your blend is favouring the pedal sound as opposed to the clean sound, that could be dialled back, add a bit more drive and open the tone up to just poke through.

How fresh are your strings and which ones? It may be for what you are playing you need zingy strings to twang through

You may not need any change or additional pedals at all.

Edited November 19, 2020 by Cuzzie

[franzbassist]

Have you tried a different order for your pedals?  Perhaps try: tuner, compresssor, VMT, octaver, filter.

[worship_mud]

it doesn't offer the clanky full on distortion the B3k delivers (at least as far as i can hear on all those YT reviews and tests on the B3K) 
i understand the concept of mixing a clean part of the sound to the distorted part, gaining clarity and attack in the process. dialing back the distorted sound in the mix makes the whole sound losing the aggression i am aiming for, that's why the mix knob on the VMT is dialled rather far into the distorted part. the middle position of the tone gives me the right amount of "body" to the sound, going further CW does add some aggression, but the fulness gets lost, i guess the scopeing of the tone knob is then too much
that's also the reason i was thinking about a clean boost. if i push the VMT with a fully distorted sound i presume that i would lose the bottom of my sound (i presume because i haven't had the opportunity to try that out) 
two guitars on 50W tube amps, one on a strat, the other one on a gretsch something (no idea) so mostly singlecoils, with a rather clear albeit distorted sound 
bass is a nate mendel P, with a puma 900 and a BF supercompact, strings are 1 month old d'addario nickel rounds, the band is tuned to Eb

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by worship_mud

[worship_mud]

4 minutes ago, franzbassist said:

Have you tried a different order for your pedals?  Perhaps try: tuner, compresssor, VMT, octaver, filter.

i'd like to keep the comp behind the oct to tame the levels going into the amp. and the octaver before the OD to get OD'ed octaver sounds, to fatten stuff up, when needed (which is rare with two guitars in the band, but it does happen)

[EliasMooseblaster]

3 hours ago, worship_mud said:

i'd like leave the VMT always on to "simulate" a tube amp at the verge of breaking up and adding a distortion pedal in front of it, something like the xotic bb or the DG B3K and

but i fear that this might mud the sound to a rhythmical hissing without definition.

The bit highlighted in bold pricked up the ears of my inner guitarist, and as any six-string-toting-fule kno, if you have a tube amp about to crack, and you want to push it into overdrive, then you plug in a Tubescreamer (or a similarly mid-focused, low-gain OD pedal). Fortunately, Ibanez also make a bass version (look up the TS-9B), with a more bass-friendly centre to the midrange boost, and I can't praise mine highly enough. Because it focuses on the mids, rather than the lows, you retain definition in a way that I've really found lacking in a lot of other bass ODs and distortions.

Whether it will get heavy enough for you is another question - and to be honest, I use my own TS-9B more as a boost for solos. If the song calls for fuzz bass then I turn to a bass fuzz: EHX's Bass Big Muff might not seem like a particularly exotic or 'boutique' optionm but it does this really well. The trick is to turn the Tone control to the left - it's basically a pre-shape, so if you turn to the left, it gives a flatter response; to the right, it starts to scoop the mids, and can get very muddy.

[Cuzzie]

37 minutes ago, worship_mud said:

it doesn't offer the clanky full on distortion the B3k delivers (at least as far as i can hear on all those YT reviews and tests on the B3K) 
i understand the concept of mixing a clean part of the sound to the distorted part, gaining clarity and attack in the process. dialing back the distorted sound in the mix makes the whole sound losing the aggression i am aiming for, that's why the mix knob on the VMT is dialled rather far into the distorted part. the middle position of the tone gives me the right amount of "body" to the sound, going further CW does add some aggression, but the fulness gets lost, i guess the scopeing of the tone knob is then too much
that's also the reason i was thinking about a clean boost. if i push the VMT with a fully distorted sound i presume that i would lose the bottom of my sound (i presume because i haven't had the opportunity to try that out) 
two guitars on 50W tube amps, one on a strat, the other one on a gretsch something (no idea) so mostly singlecoils, with a rather clear albeit distorted sound 
bass is a nate mendel P, with a puma 900 and a BF supercompact, strings are 1 month old d'addario nickel rounds, the band is tuned to Eb

 

OK,i get where you are at. IMHO i have to say that the VMT is a little flubby and lacks the clarity you seek i am afraid, and i have tried it with boosts, stacking with a B7K, other pre-amps etc. I am not saying it is a bad pedal, but I don’t think it will ever give you that cut you want.

It then depends on whether or not you are wedded to the DG sound - if you are then the AO or the X will be way better pedals for what you are after.

If you are open to other brands there is a massive amount to choice from, but it sounds like you want a tight low end and almost a cross over looking to poke through - for this i would go Tech21 DP3X every time, and it dispenses with most of that board!

[Cuzzie]

By the way - the bass, amp and cab are all awesome

[thodrik]

I use a B3K on very low gain settings and stack that into an Alpha Omega, which is also on very low gain settings. This delivers a highly aggressive signal that is actually not that overdriven or distorted.  That signal then runs into a compressor. I tried the B3k and AO stacked the other way but didn't like it as much. For the record, I am not a massive fan of the B3K on higher gain settings (a bit fizzy and synthetic for me). On lower gain settings though it is great.  

To be fair though I used to get pretty much the sound I liked by using an Aguilar Agro by itself, but the lack of blend or EQ options on the pedal (and the fact I was fed up of using the same pedal for 6-7 years) led me to the B3K. 
 

[Baloney Balderdash]

Proco Turbo Rat (or clone, for example the excellent Mooer Black Secret, or really cheap but non the less great and particularly great for bass the Mosky Black Rat, in Turbo mode) + Boss LS-2 (for clean blend).

Or for much more options and incredible tweak-ability, almost guaranteed to be capable of just the right high gain bass distortion that you hear in your head, the Source Audio Aftershock (capable of blending 2 different distortion or overdrive effects in parallel or stacking them in series from an impressive list of models + clean blend, as well as a really extensive EQ section (for each distortion/overdrive effect used, clean signal, pre/post, you name it). Don't judge it on being digital, I guarantee you or anyone else won't be able to tell the difference, really high quality modeling, just watch the YouTube videos featuring it). 

 

Edit!!! : Sorry, didn't read your OP properly through, neither of my suggestions would really work if you insist on keeping your nano pedal board, but I would still recommend you to at least look into the Source Audio Aftershock bass distortion and consider weather it might be worth it, you should be able to fit it on your nano pedal board if you scrap one of the pedals currently on it, or eventual just use your Diamond compressor as a single pedal detached from your pedal board that you then would just place beside the board and connect to the other pedals like that and then let the Aftershock take it's current place on the board.

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Baloney Balderdash

[AinsleyWalker]

If you're after something heavier, check out Darkglass' other preamps/drives. their Vintage range is their warmer more classic drive range for sure, compared to the B7k or Microtubes X.
I have the Vintage Deluxe (used to own the Microtubes you have) and the additional 4 band EQ is really essential in my eyes. 

There's nothing wrong with stacking drives as well. If you got yourself something a bit dirtier or heavier, you could always run that before the Darkglass and then use the Darkglass to either boost/add additional drive where needed. I used to do this by running a Rat into a Way Huge Pork Loin.

Also in terms of pedal order, I'd personally swap the compressor and envelope filter. I use compression at the start of the chain to ensure my pedals/amp are receiving a consistent even signal (lots of people put it at the end though, but this doesn't really suit my configuration)
Applying envelope (and other filters) on top of a pitch shifted tone, rather than pitch shifting a filtered/moving note, makes more sense than the other way round. But there are no rules, whatever works for you.

My signal chain is Tuner > Comp > Octave > Synth > Drive > Envelope > Preamp/EQ

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by AinsleyWalker

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, franzbassist said:

Have you tried a different order for your pedals?  Perhaps try: tuner, compresssor, VMT, octaver, filter.

3 hours ago, worship_mud said:

i'd like to keep the comp behind the oct to tame the levels going into the amp. and the octaver before the OD to get OD'ed octaver sounds, to fatten stuff up, when needed (which is rare with two guitars in the band, but it does happen)

Totally get the desire to have your comp at the end of the chain to limit signal spikes.

Otherwise I would agree with @franzbassist (and actually also seen in @AinsleyWalker's signal chain) of having the octave as near the start as possible to give it the cleanest signal to bite on and having the filter at the back end to give it the most complex waveforms to filter. Indeed octave-->drive-->filter is a classic DIY synth bass set up. 

Pulling that together would give you: tuner-->octaver-->VMT-->filter-->comp

Nice thing about this is that it's not set in stone - and you can mess around to your heart's content.

Must admit I'd tend to agree that the VMT is a little muddier than some drives; another pedal that would get my vote would be the Tech 21 VT DI which will give you a ton of tone shaping options as well as drive, but you'd need a bigger pedal board to fit it on! (Although if you replaced your Diamond with the compact but very capable Becos CompIQ...😊)

[franzbassist]

How about replacing the VMT with the Sheehan SIgnature Deluxe, then you can have your regular overdrive and kick in the (internally adjustable from +3 to 10dB) when you want a bit, or a lot, more?  Or you could even put another drive pedal in the drive loop?

 

Edited November 19, 2020 by franzbassist

[Cuzzie]

4 hours ago, worship_mud said:

it doesn't offer the clanky full on distortion the B3k delivers (at least as far as i can hear on all those YT reviews and tests on the B3K) 
i understand the concept of mixing a clean part of the sound to the distorted part, gaining clarity and attack in the process. dialing back the distorted sound in the mix makes the whole sound losing the aggression i am aiming for, that's why the mix knob on the VMT is dialled rather far into the distorted part. the middle position of the tone gives me the right amount of "body" to the sound, going further CW does add some aggression, but the fulness gets lost, i guess the scopeing of the tone knob is then too much
that's also the reason i was thinking about a clean boost. if i push the VMT with a fully distorted sound i presume that i would lose the bottom of my sound (i presume because i haven't had the opportunity to try that out) 
two guitars on 50W tube amps, one on a strat, the other one on a gretsch something (no idea) so mostly singlecoils, with a rather clear albeit distorted sound 
bass is a nate mendel P, with a puma 900 and a BF supercompact, strings are 1 month old d'addario nickel rounds, the band is tuned to Eb

 

The more and more I think about this, and see your set up, the Puma is a stellar amp and EQ to give you a really full clean sound and that SC is such a good clear cab, it will accurately replicate what you pop through.

I would use the compressor only and the amp to start with, have the guitars dirty as hell - you are already drop tuned so it will sound heavier, you could drop down another half a step and that will make it sound fuller.

Get that full clean bass really pumping, you won’t need a filter or octave except for the odd circumstance, and then dial in the dirt you have gradually, and you may have to add some treble for bite.

 

that’s what I would do before adding anything

Edited November 19, 2020 by Cuzzie

[worship_mud]

4 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

By the way - the bass, amp and cab are all awesome

thanks, man! i also like the whole set-up alot. the head fits into the mono gigbag's out pocket and w/ the tick for the pedalboard it's easy to move around. fantastic sound and loud AF.
and the NM is also a winner, hot looking, good sounding, super comfy. 

3 hours ago, AinsleyWalker said:

If you're after something heavier, check out Darkglass' other preamps/drives. their Vintage range is their warmer more classic drive range for sure, compared to the B7k or Microtubes X.
I have the Vintage Deluxe (used to own the Microtubes you have) and the additional 4 band EQ is really essential in my eyes. 

There's nothing wrong with stacking drives as well. If you got yourself something a bit dirtier or heavier, you could always run that before the Darkglass and then use the Darkglass to either boost/add additional drive where needed. I used to do this by running a Rat into a Way Huge Pork Loin.

i had a xotic bb bass preamp years ago and did just that with the VMT, it did sound good IIRC . but at that time i played in a soul band and traded the BB sold it to a buddy who could use it in his band. 

 

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Totally get the desire to have your comp at the end of the chain to limit signal spikes.

Otherwise I would agree with @franzbassist (and actually also seen in @AinsleyWalker's signal chain) of having the octave as near the start as possible to give it the cleanest signal to bite on and having the filter at the back end to give it the most complex waveforms to filter. Indeed octave-->drive-->filter is a classic DIY synth bass set up. 

Pulling that together would give you: tuner-->octaver-->VMT-->filter-->comp

Nice thing about this is that it's not set in stone - and you can mess around to your heart's content.

Must admit I'd tend to agree that the VMT is a little muddier than some drives; another pedal that would get my vote would be the Tech 21 VT DI which will give you a ton of tone shaping options as well as drive, but you'd need a bigger pedal board to fit it on! (Although if you replaced your Diamond with the compact but very capable Becos CompIQ...😊)

just to clear up my reasoning behind the pedal chain:

in the pic it's in the wrong order, as i just got those really, really great EBS  patch cables to make room to add the tuner (the band is Eb as mentioned above) and i just plugged it together and it came out in the wrong order. but instead of re-arranging stuff, it was "but let me take a selfie, first". sorry for that
the correct actual order would be 
tuner - OCT - env filter - OD - comp

both the VMT and the diamond are used as toneshapers in an "EQ-ish" sense, rather then OD or comp respectively. the VMT is a "tube sim" and the diamond is a magic sound wand making everything sound sweet as molasses. the ratio is below half (that would be below 2:1 if i'm not mistaken) and i use the tilt EQ like a TONE knob on the bass (in a sense). the VMT is the "SVT" in a box, drive below half and mix slighly past 12.00. i don't use them together, so they are actually interchangeable in their position.  and that's also the reason they are at the end of the pedalboard. the EQ on the amp is everything at noon / zero, the soundshaping is done on the board. i kind of have a two channel set up, and want to expand it into a three channel kind of thingy, actually.

edit, for the sake of clarity: the diamond has of course a certain "limiter" function on the octaver, but the main reason it's always on is def. soundshaping
 

Edited November 19, 2020 by worship_mud

[worship_mud]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

(Although if you replaced your Diamond with the compact but very capable Becos CompIQ...😊)

oh man, you just FULL ON hit the third thinking point i have in this whole game...    
i L O V E the diamond and it is a great , great compressor. and i love that it's not neutral, but does some  add magic sound magic. it goes so far, that i thought about selling this one and get the new smaller one. 

B U T

those becos' are also super  super tempting, freeing up board space in case. the mini looks super promising, though as i read very neutral, which would make the stella even more tempting due to it's tilt EQ and the saturation thingy. that would be functionally similar  to the sound shaping the diamond has, while being a bit more flexible. and still freeing up space on the board.  but the main focus at the moment is the distortion. but yeah, becos...

Edited November 19, 2020 by worship_mud

[Al Krow]

@51m0n has got himself a wee reputation for knowing as much about compression as just about anyone on BC! So it won't be helpful to mention that he's just bought the grand-daddy Becos... 

However it's worth mentioning, they're pretty clean and the fact you like the Diamond because it colours the tone might mean it's not the right one for you. 

Edited November 19, 2020 by Al Krow

[worship_mud]

2 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

The more and more I think about this, and see your set up, the Puma is a stellar amp and EQ to give you a really full clean sound and that SC is such a good clear cab, it will accurately replicate what you pop through.

I would use the compressor only and the amp to start with, have the guitars dirty as hell - you are already drop tuned so it will sound heavier, you could drop down another half a step and that will make it sound fuller.

Get that full clean bass really pumping, you won’t need a filter or octave except for the odd circumstance, and then dial in the dirt you have gradually, and you may have to add some treble for bite.

 

that’s what I would do before adding anything

i get your point. but i just got the nate mendel a few weeks back and due to lockdown and moving restrictions here in slovenia i didn't have a single band practice with the new bass. up until now i used my JB with john east preamp, active, and i prefer the P a lot when the focus is on heavier sounds, but haven't had one for a while. i like the NM a lot, but i actually have no idea how it sounds in band context except for jamming along trashy mobile phone recordings from last practice...    so, maybe i'm looking for a solution for a problem that does not exist...   

[Cuzzie]

20 minutes ago, worship_mud said:

i get your point. but i just got the nate mendel a few weeks back and due to lockdown and moving restrictions here in slovenia i didn't have a single band practice with the new bass. up until now i used my JB with john east preamp, active, and i prefer the P a lot when the focus is on heavier sounds, but haven't had one for a while. i like the NM a lot, but i actually have no idea how it sounds in band context except for jamming along trashy mobile phone recordings from last practice...    so, maybe i'm looking for a solution for a problem that does not exist...   

I think you may be correct there, what a great lockdown present tho!

I know that when I play what sounds pleasing to the ear on my own, is not necessarily the correct sound when playing with other band members-I have sort of trained my ears to what sounds wrong in isolation, but sounds right with the band.

For home practice I use the distorted sound to check on technique for muting, harmonics etc which are magnified, or I either have a dialled in sound I know I will change back, or play boringly clean just to get the groove.

Dont get anything until you have played together, and believe me I love buying stuff and encouraging others to buy stuff.

Also it will sound different as you have been pumping a jazz bass, now you have this awesome P bass to adjust sonically to

You mention a flat EQ on the amp, I would toy with that first, and when all options are exhausted from the current lot, then hit up something else, it’s a great compressor as well.

[AinsleyWalker]

@worship_mud Ahh I see, in regards to pedal ordering. I

have those super flat black EBS patch cables too (the ones with the lightning bolt on) They're so tidy aren't they!! I often lay my pedals out in a non-chain order and use the longer cables to reach behind other pedals (I'm a bit of a sucker for colour co-ordination..)

 I also keep my amp EQ at around noon as you do and use a Tone Hammer at the end of my board as a universal EQ to keep clean tone and effects even. I get why you have the compressor at the end as a limiter, I have mine before an OC2 and a Future Impact to make sure they get a solid signal and trigger consistently. My compressor (cali76 compact bass) doesn't really colour my tone too much, so having it earlier makes sense on my board. 

[51m0n]

Still playing with my Twain.

It's an absolute beast 🤘

 

I'm not much help to the op though I think...

[worship_mud]

sorry for resurrecting this zombie thread, but i wanted to show how i solved my my issur. 

i am actually just stacking two OD's, the Vintage Micro Tubes goes inta a Lehle / Basswitch Enhanced Overdrive and the results are surpringly solid.

the first track is just the VMT, recorded via a mooer radar cabsim with a 4x10IR, the second one are the stacked OD's (VMT -> Lehle ) with an 8x10 IR set on the radar....

 

[worship_mud]

and here are the stacked OD's.
please excuse the sloppy playing, the whole pupose is more of a sound demo then a show-off of my non-existing playing skills!