What's the best way of rehearsing remotely / online?

[Teebs]

With the Cover Bands, Oh Woe thread raging, I was wondering what would be the best way of rehearsing online - specifically which platform (ie. Zoom, Teams etc.) would be best, which Instrument - PC interface to use, and how to mix the rehearsal to set volume levels.

I've got a few ideas, but I'm sure that people on BC will be expert at this sort of thing.

Replies greatly appreciated.

 

 

[ordep]

We use Jamulus + Zoom (optional) and it has been ok so far. 

[Teebs]

I'll look into those - thanks @ordep

👍🏼

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

I’ve been using JamKazam and it’s great. Bought myself a Focusrite interface and away I went. Been using the Focusrite a lot for recording too. Wondering why I didn’t do it years earlier.

[Teebs]

Thanks @hiram.k.hackenbacker

- I can see I've got dome research / testing to do.

 

[Phil Starr]

In terms of rehearsing together I don't think any of the platforms are going to work because of the time delay (latency). Even a few thousandths of a second sounds weird but coincidentally we were experimenting on Zoom two nights ago. Trying a few songs and sharing screens, the time delay on Dakota was 2 beats or about 1 sec. I'm sure faster connections and better hardware could reduce that but there's no way you are ever going to be able to lock in with other band members. I think the only thing you can really hope for is recording your parts separately and sending the files across to play along with.

I'm hoping there is something I've missed and that there are ideas of things that can make practice more interesting and stimulating and I'll follow the thread but I'm not hoping for much

[Teebs]

6 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

In terms of rehearsing together I don't think any of the platforms are going to work because of the time delay (latency). Even a few thousandths of a second sounds weird but coincidentally we were experimenting on Zoom two nights ago. Trying a few songs and sharing screens, the time delay on Dakota was 2 beats or about 1 sec. I'm sure faster connections and better hardware could reduce that but there's no way you are ever going to be able to lock in with other band members. I think the only thing you can really hope for is recording your parts separately and sending the files across to play along with.

I'm hoping there is something I've missed and that there are ideas of things that can make practice more interesting and stimulating and I'll follow the thread but I'm not hoping for much

Interesting - I hadn't thought of the delay factor.

That could be an issue.

[Phil Starr]

Just looked at JamKazam it's got to be worth a try, and there's a free version, with restrictions but at least a way of trying it.

Not yet 9.00 and I've learned something new

[Teebs]

Thanks @Phil Starr

 

[Paul S]

We are an incestuous bunch here in SE Essex and half the guys @hiram.k.hackenbacker  plays with I do as well.  So, at their instigation, I also installed Jamkazam and although I haven't used it in anger when I tested it with one of the guys there seemed to be almost nil latency, which is astonishing.  Way better than Zoom.

But.  I found it very frustrating to set up.  Not being remotely techie one of the guys had to talk me through it but even so it wouldn't work, just farting and white noise.  In the end I got the fellow who sorts out all my PC/IT stuff at home to come round and have a look.  He hadn't heard of JamKazam but just went back to basics and looked at my pc set up.  He found 3 things and corrected them.  Moved the interface (Behringer UM2) USB from the front panel of the pc to the back.  He said that was better.  Re-routed the cable so it didn't travel across a PSU.  Told me to ditch a fluorescent desk lamp.  Voila.  Green lights across the board for latency and jitter, whatever that is.  He did explain why all that made a difference but I didn't understand.  He also suggested turning off virus protection for the duration of the rehearsal.  And switching it back on again afterwards....  

It was after that I had the good result   All we need to do now is find a time when all of us are available, so that is the same as usual  

[Teebs]

Thanks Paul - that's really useful. 👍🏼

I'm going to have a go at setting it up.

1 hour ago, Paul S said:

He also suggested turning off virus protection for the duration of the rehearsal.  And switching it back on again afterwards....

I trust he wasn't suggesting that your band / music was in any way akin to a virus...

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

As @Paul S mentions, JamKazam can be a little tricky to set up if you're not a tech head.

Couple of things I would mention is that you definitely want to be hard wired into the internet for JamKazam. Wi-fi won't cut it I'm afraid - it will work, but the latency will render it virtually unusable. Some of the guys just use their wired connection for the rehearsal and go back to wi-fi for day to day use. I've found that using a mains extender does work. Ultimately, it all depends how good your wired connection is. If you have five in your band for example, you'll all be reduced to the slowest speed of the five of you, so it's important for all to use the fastest method possible. If you're using Windows, you will want to check what drivers you are using for JamKazam. I have a Mac which sorts itself out fortunately. From the rehearsals I've had so far, pretty much all the problems that I've heard about have been Windows related in some way. One frustrating aspect for one band member may possibly be the drum kit. I'm fortunate that the drummer @Paul S and I rehearse with has a dedicated drum room with a top of the line Roland electronic kit. I would imagine an acoustic drummer who lives in a flat/terraced property who is a bit tight on space may find it problematical.

If anyone chooses to give it a try and gets stuck, give me a shout and I'll try and help.

[Teebs]

Another quick (related) question - which interface do people recommend?

@hiram.k.hackenbacker mentioned Focusrite, which I've read up on & sounds good.

Any other recommendations?

[Teebs]

Just now, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

As @Paul S mentions, JamKazam can be a little tricky to set up if you're not a tech head.

Couple of things I would mention is that you definitely want to be hard wired into the internet for JamKazam. Wi-fi won't cut it I'm afraid - it will work, but the latency will render it virtually unusable. Some of the guys just use their wired connection for the rehearsal and go back to wi-fi for day to day use. I've found that using a mains extender does work. Ultimately, it all depends how good your wired connection is. If you have five in your band for example, you'll all be reduced to the slowest speed of the five of you, so it's important for all to use the fastest method possible. If you're using Windows, you will want to check what drivers you are using for JamKazam. I have a Mac which sorts itself out fortunately. From the rehearsals I've had so far, pretty much all the problems that I've heard about have been Windows related in some way. One frustrating aspect for one band member may possibly be the drum kit. I'm fortunate that the drummer @Paul S and I rehearse with has a dedicated drum room with a top of the line Roland electronic kit. I would imagine an acoustic drummer who lives in a flat/terraced property who is a bit tight on space may find it problematical.

If anyone chooses to give it a try and gets stuck, give me a shout and I'll try and help.

Great advice!

Thanks

[DaytonaRik]

Another (mostly) satisfied JamKazam user here.  Agree with all of the above - a hard wired connection to your router and a reasonably fast interface are a must for best performance.  We rehearse as an acoustic three piece without too much trouble, but I've yet to try it as a full band relying on a drummer for timekeeping.

JamKazam can be a little flakey sometimes, and whilst it does support VST plugins (I use Reverbsuite for vocals and Slate Digital Virtual Mix Rack for my bass channel) ) it has a nasty habit of not saving the last settings that you used for that plugin, and it can occasionally just crash when loading the VST to reset everything as you want it.

The software supports multiple channels so if you are a singing musician then you can setup JamKazam to run different plugins on different channels depending on what you have plugged into that interface channel. 

I've used it quite happily with an XR18 as an interface, but get much lower latency with my Thunderbolt Focusrite Clarett 2Pre.

It's certainly much better than Zoom, FaceTime or any other 3rd party audio chat software, and when it's all setup and working it certainly does the job.

Edited December 3, 2020 by DaytonaRik

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

29 minutes ago, Teebs said:

Another quick (related) question - which interface do people recommend?

@hiram.k.hackenbacker mentioned Focusrite, which I've read up on & sounds good.

Any other recommendations?

The ones that seem to work for the people I play with are the Focusrite or the Behringer. I think the two input Behringer is about £30-40. I believe it's what @Paul S has. I was lured by the lovely dark red of the Focusrite. Good job I don't play keyboards any more or I would have a house full of Nord's 😂.

[DaytonaRik]

7 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

The ones that seem to work for the people I play with are the Focusrite or the Behringer. I think the two input Behringer is about £30-40. I believe it's what @Paul S has. I was lured by the lovely dark red of the Focusrite. Good job I don't play keyboards any more or I would have a house full of Nord's 😂.

We are easily persuaded!

[DaytonaRik]

9 minutes ago, hiram.k.hackenbacker said:

The ones that seem to work for the people I play with are the Focusrite or the Behringer. I think the two input Behringer is about £30-40. I believe it's what @Paul S has. I was lured by the lovely dark red of the Focusrite. Good job I don't play keyboards any more or I would have a house full of Nord's 😂.

Our guitarist has the Scarlett 2i2 but the Solo version which has 1 x combo socket and 1 x 1/4" should be fine for most people. 

[SpondonBassed]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm hoping there is something I've missed and that there are ideas of things that can make practice more interesting and stimulating and I'll follow the thread but I'm not hoping for much

One of the drawbacks of having to convert analogue to digital and back again.  When the method for time travel is cracked it wont matter so much.

[Phil Starr]

4 minutes ago, SpondonBassed said:

One of the drawbacks of having to convert analogue to digital and back again.  When the method for time travel is cracked it wont matter so much.

I'm very analogue I'm afraid

 

[Phil Starr]

Question about interfaces, 

I notice that Behringer (and presumably everyone else) do a 2 way interface which is £37 and one which is £59. 16bit  24kHz and 24bit  192kHz. obviously the quality is going to be better with the faster sampling rate but latency? 

Secondly a lot of small mixers have USB outputs including one I have here. Will they work as well or again is latency going to be more of a problem? 

[Teebs]

Just now, Phil Starr said:

Question about interfaces, 

I notice that Behringer (and presumably everyone else) do a 2 way interface which is £37 and one which is £59. 16bit  24kHz and 24bit  192kHz. obviously the quality is going to be better with the faster sampling rate but latency? 

Secondly a lot of small mixers have USB outputs including one I have here. Will they work as well or again is latency going to be more of a problem? 

I was wondering about digital / USB mixers too.

A bit more complicated than I'd thought...

[DaytonaRik]

The Behringer XR18 mixer works well as a USB interface but has a limit of 48khz.  I do have an X32 Rack but I've not tried that as an interface yet.

[SpondonBassed]

1 minute ago, Phil Starr said:

I'm very analogue I'm afraid

Even though I have worked both with software and hardware development and maintenance, I'm no digi-kiddy myself.  I can't warm to it.  In a lot of cases it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Even mobiles suffer latency now that they're fully digital.  It's one of a few reasons that I don't like them.  I strongly dislike having those awkward stuttering conversations that you get as a result.

I was one of the last analogue only students on my sound and lighting course in the eighties.  The instructors were already up on MIDI and we got some info on that during the breaks.  Exiting times but the costs of investing wholesale in digital were prohibitive.

Now that it is less expensive the main issue for me is the never ending series of licencing agreements you get presented with just to keep current.  Any of those hard or software vendors could pull the plug on your agreements at any time due to insolvency, malpractice or political reasons in countries other than where they originate.  Analogue burdens you with neither delay issues nor scripted agreements.

/Rant

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

22 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Question about interfaces, 

I notice that Behringer (and presumably everyone else) do a 2 way interface which is £37 and one which is £59. 16bit  24kHz and 24bit  192kHz. obviously the quality is going to be better with the faster sampling rate but latency? 

Secondly a lot of small mixers have USB outputs including one I have here. Will they work as well or again is latency going to be more of a problem? 

One of the reasons I went for this one....

https://www.thomann.de/gb/focusrite_scarlett_solo_3rd_gen.htm