Do I Need a PREAMP pedal?

[lowrentdiscographer]

Hey everybody! Long story long...

So the last two basses I've used have been lower-end jap jobs with active electronics.

I've been rehearsing with a dad-band playing mostly alternative 90s and 00s alternative rock stuff.

My nan left me a little bit of money so about a month ago I bought myself a mexican p bass which is passive. My first bass was a Westfield p copy and I always thought I might get a real one someday. Anyway, unlike my active Ibanez and Yamaha, the way the tone knob seems to work is that it just cuts the treble? It doesn't seem to boost the bass, you just lose the twang.

The problem I've got is that after setting a tone I like with the knob set at roughly between 1/2 and 2/3 rolled off I'm losing myself in the mix when playing up the neck, past A on the D an G strings.

We're rehearsing at Pirate studios using their gear so I'm playing through an Ashdown amp that has got way more switches and knobs than my own Hartke LH. I'm using the same amp settings as I was for the other basses which is fairly flat across the board. I'm otherwise playing fairly clean, I take a tuner pedal and a kit-built fuzz which is set quite tame and is usually off.

A good example of what's happening is when we play The Offspring's Self Esteem. I can hear myself fine in the first half of the verse, to be expected as I'm alone with the drummer, but when the (crunchy) guitars come in in the second part of the verse, I disappear from my ears. This wasn't happening with my Ibanez. The chorus, where the bass is down on the lower notes is fine.

As a certified skinflint I'm thinking of chucking 20-something quid at the Behringer preamp... would it help?

Thanks in advance.

 

Steve.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Dial in more mids on your amp's EQ, if it's a more general issue.

Or get a clean boost pedal you can kick in and out as you desire, if it is a question of your bass drowning because the guitars actually gets louder in some parts of the songs you play (typically distorted parts, where setting the volume of the distortion higher is part of what makes up the song's dynamics).

Edited December 3, 2020 by Baloney Balderdash

[Cuzzie]

Fuzz will help to lose you - dial in the amp in the rooms, or take your Hartke with you to rehearsal-how good/bad are the ear plugs you wear playing in the rooms?

That won’t help if it attenuates all the wrong stuff

What volume are you playing at, play at the lowest level possible and you’ll get a better mix

Edited December 4, 2020 by Cuzzie

[lowrentdiscographer]

1 hour ago, Cuzzie said:

What volume are you playing at, play at the lowest level possible and you’ll get a better mix

Yeah, but, guitarists...

[Cuzzie]

True

defo take the LH1000 then and just blow them away

[lowrentdiscographer]

26 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

True

defo take the LH1000 then and just blow them away

It's the lesser 500 I have. I think it only gives 350ish because I've got it powering a single 8ohm 1x15

But still, good advice, ta.

Fuzzy & Baloney, I'll try playing with the amp EQs a bit more.

Ta.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 10, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Skybone]

12 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Dial in more mids on your amp's EQ, if it's a more general issue.

Dial in more mids, maybe dial back the bass and/or treble.

1 hour ago, Jus Lukin said:

Also, check the setup of the bass, particularly the pickup. They can be adjusted to affect the output and tone of each string to a greater degree than a one piece pickup. Some Precisions require some odd pickup angles to balance correctly, and some are better set more evenly. I've also seen some with them set all wrong from the factory- one screw tightened too far can put the balance all out of whack!

Maybe you need to look at the height of the pickup as well. Raise the pickup a bit on the P if you can, but obviously, have an ear out for string balance so the bass doesn't overwhelm the treble.

[MacDaddy]

13 hours ago, lowrentdiscographer said:

* snip *

As a certified skinflint I'm thinking of chucking 20-something quid at the Behringer preamp... would it help?

Thanks in advance.

 

Steve.

 

If you mean the BDI21 then yes. Every gigging bassist should have one, if they haven't already got something similar. £20ish quid for a DI/pre-amp/amp modeller/distortion, it's a no brainer.

Edited December 4, 2020 by MacDaddy

[lowrentdiscographer]

1 hour ago, MacDaddy said:

 

If you mean the BDI21 then yes. Every gigging bassist should have one, if they haven't already got something similar. £20ish quid for a DI/pre-amp/amp modeller/distortion, it's a no brainer.

That's the one. Not a gigging bassist... yet.

[Bassmidget209]

Another thing to consider is how the guitarists are eq'd. I used to play in a very loud band with a guitarist, an animal of a drummer and a front man that was also very loud. Me and the guitarist basically took different sections of the mid range and stayed out of each others way sonically. While the Beringer can make you louder it will also scoop your mids, potentially making your problem worse. However also agree, a preamp/DI is hugely important in any kind of gig scenario (especially if you can plug straight into the PA and laugh at the guitarists lugging massive amps about while you have a beer 😂). If you were to get one keep, alter the amp eq to mitigate for the scoop. I recently got an eq pedal and this has really helped. I sound like a p-bass again!

[lowrentdiscographer]

Development: On Friday evening my guitarists' car wouldn't start after work and he REALLY had toget home asap, so I ran him home. The following day i picked him up and we jumped his car and all was well. Anyway as a thank-you he presented me with a BEQ700 pedal which even with zero dialling in time did a fair job of giving me a bit more mid punch at last night's rehearsal.

[Jack]

That's helpful. The other thing to think about is that most passive basses are slightly darker than most active basses just in general, so between that and rolling the tone back to half on the P it's probably just a sound that's too dark for you. 

 

Tone full, steel strings, play with a pick. It's punk rock man, Greg K didn't record that line with a subtly-finger-picked, fretless jazz bass with flatwounds did he?

Edited December 10, 2020 by Jack

[bazzbass]

your first option is to buy a cheap pedal? Try adjusting your amp's EQ section,that is what it is there for.

 

You rolled off your tone knob for no apparent reason,then complain you can't hear yourself. Put all your tone back and try again.....

[lowrentdiscographer]

2 hours ago, bazzbass said:

your first option is to buy a cheap pedal? Try adjusting your amp's EQ section,that is what it is there for.

 

You rolled off your tone knob for no apparent reason,then complain you can't hear yourself. Put all your tone back and try again.....

Hiya bazzbazz

Well I was hoping for a solution that means I can avoid re-dialling in amp e.q. if I'm to switch basses. Preferable to gnireggub about retuning between standard and drop d, I'd have thought. No, we're not gigging (yet, if ever) and we're only getting to the point where about half a dozen songs are roughly into shape (boundless &  prolific creative talents we are not)

You rolled off your tone - Yes, yes I did, but not for no apparent reason. It might be a bit noddy but isn't a 'nice sound' (insert subjective or objective descriptions as appropriate) one of the things we want? I was looking for a sound that roughly equates to what I was used ro from my Ibanez. 

Complain? Not sure there bb, I think what presented was a (possibly incomplete, with a lack of understanding) description of what I perceived a problem to be, and a query as to how I might resolve it. The obvious point is that they're different instruments, but I'm pretty sure performers big and small swap instruments mid set every once in a while without disappearing or overpowering the mix?

Put all your tone back and try again? Ok, I already know that works, in that I can hear myself fine, but I sound like a banjo. Unless we're saying super bright twangy treble-y sound = 'tone' and that's the end of it? I know we aren't playing RnB, but ideally like a little bit of round/fat to then sound. Maybe I'm asking too much.

Hey, that level of pragmatism actually works for me, maybe I'll just roll with it.

Apologies if my tone is off, I might well be a little triggered (as the kids say) by you saying I'm complaining. It MUST be a case of I'm doing it wrong - because if I knew I was doing it right, wouldn't have needed to ask...

[King Tut]

On 04/12/2020 at 11:08, lowrentdiscographer said:

It's the lesser 500 I have. I think it only gives 350ish because I've got it powering a single 8ohm 1x15

But still, good advice, ta.

Fuzzy & Baloney, I'll try playing with the amp EQs a bit more.

Ta.

LH500 will be loud enough unless it’s going int a really poor cab. They’re blooming loud!

[King Tut]

Also if you’re planning to switch basses mid set - that’s another can of worms. Actives are often much louder than passives, not to mention having different tonal characteristics so unless you can set them up so they’re sounding pretty much the same in tone and level, or have some kind solution where you can set up two switchable patches (by a multi fx or programmable amp) I’d try to avoid that for the time being until you’ve got a bit more experience gigging or playing in loud environments. I mean, I’m not saying it’s not doable, but I’m still agonising over pickup height setting, gain settings etc etc and I’ve been gigging for 35 odd years. I had a couple of occasions last year out on tour where we’d play a Blues Devils set first set playing as our own support band. And a Stray set as the main set. I’d use a Jazz or Mustang for the first set and a Ric for the main set. Being a vain bugger I don’t like wearing my glasses on stage. I’d get off stage first set having planned to alter the volume on one of my pedals to match the basses volumes. Then think ‘did i alter it or not?’ ‘Am I remembering last night’. Get back on stage - check the pedal and not be able to see the settings  - grrrrFFS this getting old lark is doing me nut in!!

To be fair to you it’s good that you’re looking forward and you’ve come to the right place for advice so I hope you get it sorted.What i will say - and you’re learning this already, playing loud and/or live is a different ballgame to quiet playing and different challenges arise - be patient, you’ll get there!

[lowrentdiscographer]

On 04/12/2020 at 11:09, Jus Lukin said:

If you can let us know how you are setting the preamp on the active basses we may be able to give you a few more pointers, but the solution will be in comparing the sounds of the Ibanez and Yamaha basses to the P. If they are simply brighter then it may be as easy as above- if you are using a particular EQ, then it may be worth replicating that to a degree on the amp. Essentially, tweaking the P to sound like the actives will retain the Precision voice, but make sure you are hearing whatever the frequencies were that helped the actives remain present in the mix.

On my Ibanez there are 4 knobs set in a line.

The first is volume, which I usually set to about 10 o clock (with 12 being) full. Solely so I've got a little bit extra if things get louder.

The next is pan, I think. This has a centre notch, I roll this forward to the neck pickup to about 1.30 PM.

The next is bass, i think. I roll this forward to about 1 o clock.

The last is treble i guess, and I leave it in the centre/flat.

On MY LH500 eq - using o-clocks rather than the dial numbers, I go for 2PM ish on bass, 11am on mids and 1pm on treble. I turn the limiter ON but not the bright switch. This powers a single 1x15 homemade to EV TL606 spec which is loaded with an eminence kappa 15a (450w rated, 8 ohm).

I like how this sounds without any effects added. Even though the treble isn't overbearing in terms of twang it's still very 'present' when playing along with my dad-pals.

Another member has quite rightly suggested playing with the amp eq.

When convenience dictates using the studios own gear - it's a bit more hit and miss because the gear changes and you're racing to get going.

I've made one other change since op which is I've pulled the stuffing out of my cab. This has helped to a degree alongside the eq pedal, when playing with the P. I've also started pushing the P tone knob up past halfway - but not by much.

[lowrentdiscographer]

7 minutes ago, King Tut said:

Also if you’re planning to switch basses mid set - that’s another can of worms. Actives are often much louder than passives, not to mention having different tonal characteristics so unless you can set them up so they’re sounding pretty much the same in tone and level, or have some kind solution where you can set up two switchable patches (by a multi fx or programmable amp) I’d try to avoid that for the time being until you’ve got a bit more experience gigging or playing in loud environments. I mean, I’m not saying it’s not doable, but I’m still agonising over pickup height setting, gain settings etc etc and I’ve been gigging for 35 odd years. I had a couple of occasions last year out on tour where we’d play a Blues Devils set first set playing as our own support band. And a Stray set as the main set. I’d use a Jazz or Mustang for the first set and a Ric for the main set. Being a vain bugger I don’t like wearing my glasses on stage. I’d get off stage first set having planned to alter the volume on one of my pedals to match the basses volumes. Then think ‘did i alter it or not?’ ‘Am I remembering last night’. Get back on stage - check the pedal and not be able to see the settings  - grrrrFFS this getting old lark is doing me nut in!!

To be fair to you it’s good that you’re looking forward and you’ve come to the right place for advice so I hope you get it sorted.What i will say - and you’re learning this already, playing loud and/or live is a different ballgame to quiet playing and different challenges arise - be patient, you’ll get there!

My main problem, and one that I can only blame myself for, is that I've always been a 'coaster' when it comes to playing music. Learn a line, learn a riff, learn a bit of a technique,  threaten to get something going with college mates, get drunk instead... then all of a sudden you're a grown up.

I had a 3 month round of lessons about a 10 years back, not for grades or anything, really just to set a bar as to where I was at and what I could and couldn't do.

Dad-band v1 failed to get any traction a couple of years back. I'm more hopeful this time, although we'll never set anyone's world alight, that we'll be able to perform at some level. The lead guitarist is a firm friend and we've got a sort of parallel history in terms of musical experience. Part of this is absolutely going to be about working out the limits that our lack of experience will let us work to.

I expect in the main our sets will be short - the warm up act to the warm up act to the local working band when they play that community gig that they can't really be desra with because its Saturday day time and they're playing on a trailer in a village square packed with market stalls - would be about the height of our vision. So maybe a setlist that doesn't require different tunings would be the way to go...

[Cuzzie]

26 minutes ago, lowrentdiscographer said:

On my Ibanez there are 4 knobs set in a line.

The first is volume, which I usually set to about 10 o clock (with 12 being) full. Solely so I've got a little bit extra if things get louder.

The next is pan, I think. This has a centre notch, I roll this forward to the neck pickup to about 1.30 PM.

The next is bass, i think. I roll this forward to about 1 o clock.

The last is treble i guess, and I leave it in the centre/flat.

On MY LH500 eq - using o-clocks rather than the dial numbers, I go for 2PM ish on bass, 11am on mids and 1pm on treble. I turn the limiter ON but not the bright switch. This powers a single 1x15 homemade to EV TL606 spec which is loaded with an eminence kappa 15a (450w rated, 8 ohm).

I like how this sounds without any effects added. Even though the treble isn't overbearing in terms of twang it's still very 'present' when playing along with my dad-pals.

Another member has quite rightly suggested playing with the amp eq.

When convenience dictates using the studios own gear - it's a bit more hit and miss because the gear changes and you're racing to get going.

I've made one other change since op which is I've pulled the stuffing out of my cab. This has helped to a degree alongside the eq pedal, when playing with the P. I've also started pushing the P tone knob up past halfway - but not by much.

One thing I will say about the LH500 amp is that it uses the old Fender Tone stack.

So........

A flat EQ, corresponding to the numbers on the dials going Bass-Mid-treble is 2-10-2 (the 2 could be 3)

The EQ you have set according to the clock position is very bass and treble heavy with a massive mid scoop.

Add your on bass EQ in

Could this new accounting for what you are hearing?

[Cuzzie]

For different tunings whether you start normal, or down half a step, do you then go to drop D or Drop C?

If it’s something simple like ‘normal’ tuning (be it half a step down or not) and into drop D, then your options are - leave it in drop D and just learn the normal tuning lines fretting the 2nd fret on the E string when you would use an open string, or if that doesn’t feel right, get a Hipshot Drop D tuner so it’s an easy flick between songs with no rigmarole 

[lowrentdiscographer]

2 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

One thing I will say about the LH500 amp is that it uses the old Fender Tone stack.

So........

A flat EQ, corresponding to the numbers on the dials going Bass-Mid-treble is 2-10-2 (the 2 could be 3)

The EQ you have set according to the clock position is very bass and treble heavy with a massive mid scoop.

Add your on bass EQ in

Could this new accounting for what you are hearing?

Erm.. could be?

I'll try starting from where you say, and see if I can get the p to something I like, then see if I can get the Ibanez somewhere close being as it has more to go at...

[Cuzzie]

Looking at your original post - if you use those settings you are essentially strangling your Mexican P bass - a P is all about the mids and that EQ sucks them away.

Also a passive tone knob won’t boost the pass as the treble rolls off, it just doesn’t work that way.

Experiment with where you play on the bass - fingers or pick, play nearer the neck - it’s a fatter sound, nearer the bridge - thinner sound - you can get a variety within a song just by this alteration depending on what you want with no EQ changes.

I know I sound like a broken record and probably boring , but getting it all flat and your starting place for me is essentially, and then change one thing at a time till it balances.

Its a slow journey, but what you may also find is that the sound that works in a band may sound completely crap in isolation - for that reason I have one setting for the band photographed and remembered, but for home practice use another

You’ll get there

Edited December 12, 2020 by Cuzzie

[Cuzzie]

8 minutes ago, lowrentdiscographer said:

Erm.. could be?

I'll try starting from where you say, and see if I can get the p to something I like, then see if I can get the Ibanez somewhere close being as it has more to go at...

Be easier to get the amp EQ on the passive where you like and then boost or cut on the active and use that volume knob to gain stage appropriately - then tape the knobs!

[lowrentdiscographer]

10 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

For different tunings whether you start normal, or down half a step, do you then go to drop D or Drop C?

If it’s something simple like ‘normal’ tuning (be it half a step down or not) and into drop D, then your options are - leave it in drop D and just learn the normal tuning lines fretting the 2nd fret on the E string when you would use an open string, or if that doesn’t feel right, get a Hipshot Drop D tuner so it’s an easy flick between songs with no rigmarole 

Cuzzie,

We have normal, Eb and drop d in our list of songs, but we half already decided that for convenience we are only playing them in normal or drop d. If an e-flat song doesn't sound good (enough) in regular e then it'll be dropped (unless we reconsider that stance, I'm guessing it's sacrilege to some).

D-tuner could be a goer - one thing though, when I detune/retune the e string I find the other 3 can wobble slightly (at least that's what my tuner says,  not totally convinced I can hear it) so does it require any other setup?