Finished! A Very Special Save

[Andyjr1515]

18 hours ago, Matt P said:

also, what thickness is the steel sheet you are using for this? If i ask nicely the kind gentleman that runs our workshop will furnish me with some shim steel but I'd need to know how thin it should be.

I'll measure it this morning, Matt

[LukeFRC]

On 09/12/2020 at 12:14, Andyjr1515 said:

well done! - Forgive my ignorance, what's the dark grey stuff in the neck? 

[Andyjr1515]

15 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

well done! - Forgive my ignorance, what's the dark grey stuff in the neck? 

It's one of the many examples of how Wals are so different to most builders.  They are one of the most engineered bass makes I know, in spite of their very traditional look.

It's a synthetic plate - I am assuming carbon fibre.  I'll take a close up photo later today.  What I don't know is whether it is fixed somehow to the neck or trussrod.

It's going to give me some pondering in terms of securing the new fretboard.  The Wal fretboard was much thinner than I would usually fit that maybe because it needs to flex more easily. But too thin and, when you cut the fret slots, you can end up with a series of little loose squares!

What I need to do is flex the rod with no fretboard on it and see if it's a fully self-contained unit.  It is notable that the board was glued to this plate so maybe...

Anyone know?

[LukeFRC]

2 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

It's one of the many examples of how Wals are so different to most builders.  They are one of the most engineered bass makes I know, in spite of their very traditional look.

It's a synthetic plate - I am assuming carbon fibre.  I'll take a close up photo later today.  What I don't know is whether it is fixed somehow to the neck or trussrod.

It's going to give me some pondering in terms of securing the new fretboard.  The Wal fretboard was much thinner than I would usually fit that maybe because it needs to flex more easily. But too thin and, when you cut the fret slots, you can end up with a series of little loose squares!

What I need to do is flex the rod with no fretboard on it and see if it's a fully self-contained unit.  It is notable that the board was glued to this plate so maybe...

Anyone know?

So... wals have essentially a carbon core and wood around? If Vigier ended up with their 90/10 carbon necks ... and Wal. also ... that could explain a bit off what the Wal sounds is made up off!

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

So... wals have essentially a carbon core and wood around? If Vigier ended up with their 90/10 carbon necks ... and Wal. also ... that could explain a bit off what the Wal sounds is made up off!

I'm not sure - it might just be a flat filler plate.  But clearly there for a purpose..

[Andyjr1515]

@Matt P - the sheet steel that I'm using is 0.3mm thick.

In the past, I've used one of these Irwin pull saws fairly successfully - pulled through backwards (you have to wear gloves, of course  ) :

The advantage is that they are pretty wide and the teeth are not kerfed.  Oh - and they are dirt cheap!  They are actually one of my favourite flexi saws - they cut through stuff that conventional saws struggle with.  I haven't measured it, but it must be a similar thickness

 

[Si600]

9 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

I'm not sure - it might just be a flat filler plate.  But clearly there for a purpose..

It's a conversation piece for forums when someone takes the fretboard off?

[Daz39]

Just now, Si600 said:

It's a conversation piece for forums when someone takes the fretboard off?

What's under the neck?

It's an origami dreidel and 7 mini smarties... oh...

It's - 6oz of blow! We have a winner...

 

Srsly though - it's fascinating learning through reverse engineering, (surprise explorations, whatever) the innards of basses and their construction techniques.

[Matt P]

thank you @Andyjr1515 0.3mm shouldn't be difficult to obtain, the gentleman that runs our workshop is a friendly generous fellow so a suitable length of shim steel will be easy enough to obtain. I do have a few pull saws that are probably thin enough if that fails.

i will pick up an iron on my next shopping trip, it's going to be a while before I get some time in my little home workshop though.

 

thanks again for the information, it's stuff like this that makes Basschat such a great place.

 

Matt

[Richard R]

1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said:

I'm not sure - it might just be a flat filler plate.  But clearly there for a purpose..

Maybe worth contacting Wal and asking?

You're being totally honest in replacing the board so everyone knows it's not a 100% Wal, they may well be inclined to help make it sound good as it still has their name on the headstock. 

[RichardH]

Looks like it might well be graphite - this might be of interest Wal Pro 1E neck rebuild

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by RichardH

[Andyjr1515]

42 minutes ago, RichardH said:

Looks like it might well be graphite - this might be of interest Wal Pro 1E neck rebuild

 

Brilliant find!  Yes that's the kiddy

Thanks

[Andyjr1515]

Yes - good suggestion (and @Fishman is already in contact with Wal who are supplying a few bits and pieces (and were asked but couldn't supply a replacement body) so it's not an issue. 

That said, I think @RichardH 's post above completely clarifies it

 

[Fishman]

Paul at Wal did say he could make a new body but the cost was beyond my budget and it could be a long wait

[Andyjr1515]

So some good news and also some bits to investigate a bit further with the neck.  The link that @RichardH posted is immensely useful because I can see exactly what's going on.

So my first question was whether the trussrod action was self-contained.  A modern two way rod bends and the neck follows it.  And therefore the two ends press down on the spine at the back of the neck and the middle presses up against the middle of the fretboard.  And my question was - if this works like that, then what is going to hold the fretboard from pinging off???? 

But looking at the photos, it was clearly a one-way rod that was fitted.  And that bends the neck by pulling against two fixed points at either end of the neck itself.  And that doesn't put a force on the underside of the fretboard.

But only one way of finding out - tighten the trussrod and either:

- the neck was going to bend even without a fretboard attached

or

- there would be a soft furry *ping* and I would be covered in graphite fibres

It bent fine and no *ping*

So there is no need to remove the graphite as the guy on the link did.

But - there was one thing I had noticed even before I did this.  Was this the bit of wood that the one end of the rod relies on to hold the nylon block firmly in place? :

Because, if it is, that is going to need sorting.

Now, interestingly, when I tightened the rod, this sliver of cracked wood didn't move at all...and that is a good sign.

And when I look at one of Richard's link photos, it looks like the block is actually held by the wood projections going down the depth of the  neck:

(with thanks and acknowledgement to unicornbass.se for the above photo)

So tomorrow I'm going to chisel that bit of loose wood away and see if I'm right.  There - I said it quickly so I don't think anyone will have noticed 

 

 

[Richard R]

Ignorant of Solihull here. Why do you need to remove that piece of wood? The neck is functional as it is, I thought the intention was only to replace the fretboard.  What have I missed?

[Andyjr1515]

10 minutes ago, Richard R said:

Ignorant of Solihull here. Why do you need to remove that piece of wood? The neck is functional as it is, I thought the intention was only to replace the fretboard.  What have I missed?

Decent question.

The wood at the two anchor ends of a single action rod take all of the force of the rod.  They stay put as the rod gets shorter and so the neck has no option but to bend.  So, if that is the bit of wood holding the nylon end block in place, and it is capable of moving, then - now or later - when the screw end is tightened, the nylon block will simply move with the nut and the neck won't bend.

(By chiselling the wood away, I will be able to see if there is anything else holding the block in place)

Edited December 11, 2020 by Andyjr1515

[Richard R]

Why would it move, if it isn't doing so now and will have the fretboard glued on top? Or are you just being ultra careful and removing it to replace do you KNOW it won't move?

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Richard R said:

Why would it move, if it isn't doing so now and will have the fretboard glued on top? Or are you just being ultra careful and removing it to replace do you KNOW it won't move?

Well, that chip you can see has already moved.  It is split and it is misplaced.  And there is a small gap behind the nylon block.  The movement I am looking out for is of the white nylon block towards the headstock as the nut is tightened.  The fretboard wouldn't affect that. 

And, of course, without knowing the full history of this second hand neck, we don't actually know whether the neck was holding relief properly in the first place - it may have been moving and losing relief.  As there has clearly been some movement of something, I need to be sure - while I can do something about it if necessary - before making a new fretboard and gluing that on.  I wouldn't want to have to iron the new fretboard off too

It's a quick check and easily fixable in the unlikely event that there is an issue

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Andyjr1515

[Richard R]

Thanks,  I must have missed the bit that said the  chip was moving. 

[Andyjr1515]

Well, this morning the 4-sticks of Luminlay arrived from Japan - and one is for this save 

Posted in an airmail envelope in Japan on 21st Nov; Arrived UK 22nd Nov; Customs notification 10th December; £0 duty  £5.80 VAT and £8.00 Royal Mail handling charge (most of the handling on their automated system was me); received 12th December

And our leader is energetically and enthusiastically heading towards a no deal, no delay Brexit??  Hmmm... 2021 is going to be a joy...

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Andyjr1515

[Owen]

37 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

And our leader is energetically and enthusiastically heading towards a no deal, no delay Brexit??  Hmmm... 2021 is going to be a joy...

 

i m tyyyoiing ths witttttthhhmu nose becooooss i m sitttingg onn myy handf to stop mw makinnnnn a pollllitiiiicl commmnt whuch wooood gt the thred ckosed.

[Andyjr1515]

10 minutes ago, owen said:

i m tyyyoiing ths witttttthhhmu nose becooooss i m sitttingg onn myy handf to stop mw makinnnnn a pollllitiiiicl commmnt whuch wooood gt the thred ckosed.

Well, that might be my ploy to get the thread closed down before I chisel that bit of wood away and there's a massive *POP* and I'm left covered in graphite fibres and wood chippings 

[Andyjr1515]

So I chiselled the moved piece flat so that I could properly detect any movement.  I didn't want to remove it because that bridge over the trussrod end thread is useful for keeping wood glue out of the thread

So basically the nylon block is supposed to be fixed.  Theoretically there are two timber haunches (marked in yellow) stopping it simply moving in the direction of the arrow when the trussrod is tightened.

But, clearly, it has moved at some stage.  It's moved forward to leave that small gap at the back and enough for the top of the nylon to snap the timber bridge over the rod. 

That may have happened the very first time the trussrod was tightened - it is only about 3mm thick and the force is pushing it's weakest grain line. 

Or it maybe that the haunches themselves are weakened and every time force is applied, the block moves forward and loses the force applied to the rod.

 

So now I can see right up close, I can do a live stress test.  First I clamp a block along the neck - I am not applying downward pressure - but I am stopping the neck rising up from flat:

 

And now, watching the block and split wood very closely, I start tightening the trussrod.  The neck can't go anywhere so the allen key starts becoming difficult to turn.  I turn it to the 'luthier's touch-point' - the point where you would normally stop because you know from experience (quite) that much more will break the rod.

And it passed with flying colours.  No movement, no creaking, no cracking.  This will be fine in service.

 

  So the neck and rod are confirmed sound and now I can get on and start making the new fretboard.

In the meantime, there's a Wall 1e pro template winging its way across to me to start thinking about the body that this will eventually be fitted to.

As always, thanks for looking

 

 

[songofthewind]

Fine forensic luthiery!