Sixteenth note rests

[Richard Jinman]

Is it ok to use a ghost note to insert a 16th note rest in a fast run of notes or should  you be able to ‘feel’ the rest and leave it silent? Asking for a friend.

[Guest]

It all depends on the articulation. If there is clearly a gap between two notes (so they’re clearly articulated and there needs to be silence between them that is heard) then it needs a rest. Often th note before the rest will be staccato or accented to highlight the gap. If it’s less distinct or very fast a ghost note may be more appropriate as it can often make the line flow better.

[Doddy]

Personally, I think that you should be feeling the rests as much as you would feel the notes.  You could maybe get away with playing ghost notes if you are playing an improvised part , but if you are playing a written bassline I think it is better to 'play' the rests rather than play ghost notes through them, especially if it is a unison line. 

It'll be interesting to know what the line is that you're asking about. It would add a bit more context.

[dodge_bass]

On 09/12/2020 at 08:03, Richard Jinman said:

Is it ok to use a ghost note to insert a 16th note rest in a fast run of notes or should  you be able to ‘feel’ the rest and leave it silent? Asking for a friend.

Well as a teacher I would say that if you’re trying to learn tricky passages with semi-quaver rests in then playing them as ghost notes first is a great way to internalise the passages and then when you’re comfortable you can just not play the ghost notes et voila  Of course as noted it’s all very context specific so maybe you could give us some specific details ?

[Richard Jinman]

The piece was Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick.. the 16th note rest on the 1 of each bar was throwing me for some reason. But after inserting ghosts for a while I am now starting to ‘hear’ the rest.

[Doddy]

I think with Rhythm Stick, that semiquaver rest is kind of important to the line, because of the accent on beat one.

The reason I wouldn't practice with the ghost note is because it's likely to become part of your muscle memory which you then have to unlearn later. I'd suggest, with any line like that, to just play it slowly while counting so that you get used to 'playing' the rests and feeling them as part of the bassline. 

[Richard Jinman]

Thanks Doddy. I’ve managed to eliminate the ghosts now, but they were useful to allow me feel the rest at first. Agree it’s much better with a true rest though. I’m at the stage in my bass playing where I’m encountering fast runs of 16th notes and syncopated 16ths for the first time. The main riff from Soul Man for eg had me scratching my head until I slowed it down and magically it fell into place. What a great instrument!

Edited December 13, 2020 by Richard Jinman

[Guest]

 Feeling rests is down to your internal clock. If you can internalise that constant pulse, and feel the subdivision of that pulse (into 2, 3, 4 or heaven forbid, 5!) and most importantly continue feeling that when there is no beat to play along with, then you’re going some way to developing your internal clock.

Session drummer Bernard Purdie (he of the Purdie shuffle) is quoted as saying he could tap a beat out to the radio in his car, go through a tunnel where the radio cuts out and be perfectly in time when he comes out the other side and the radio kicks back in (but take that quote with a large pinch of salt as this was the guy that purportedly put a card up next to his drums on sessions saying “Congratulations, you hired the hit maker!”) - but a very much more basic version of that is the order of the day - when the music cuts out your internal clock takes over. 

Hit Me... has an accent on the 4th 16th note of beat 4, which may be what’s throwing you, as you start playing the bass line on the 2nd 16th note of beat 1. as others have said, in this context the rest is really important. 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 13/12/2020 at 10:23, Richard Jinman said:

Thanks Doddy. I’ve managed to eliminate the ghosts now, but they were useful to allow me feel the rest at first. Agree it’s much better with a true rest though. I’m at the stage in my bass playing where I’m encountering fast runs of 16th notes and syncopated 16ths for the first time. The main riff from Soul Man for eg had me scratching my head until I slowed it down and magically it fell into place. What a great instrument!

I don't read music, but I've noticed that a lot of tab (even 'advanced' tab that shows note durations like notation) can't really show syncopation and repeated listening is the only way to get the original 'feel'. I find imitating the rhythm (like some low-grade human beat box) really helps me get an unusual rhythm into my head.

[Doddy]

3 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I don't read music, but I've noticed that a lot of tab (even 'advanced' tab that shows note durations like notation) can't really show syncopation and repeated listening is the only way to get the original 'feel'. I find imitating the rhythm (like some low-grade human beat box) really helps me get an unusual rhythm into my head.

Obviously tab alone won't give you any hint to the rhythmic feel but if the rhythms are notated, any syncopation should be pretty clear as long as you can read it and count the subdivisions, so you don't have to repeatedly listen.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Doddy

[paul_5]

At the start of my gigging days I was given 2 very similar pieces of advice:

"Don't play through t'rests, and don't play through t'bingo".

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, Doddy said:

Obviously tab alone won't give you any hint to the rhythmic feel but if the rhythms are notated, any syncopation should be pretty clear as long as you can read it and count the subdivisions, so you don't have to repeatedly listen.

The best tab uses 'notes' with numbers instead of heads, so it shows the rhythm in the same way (I can 'read' rhythm, but not pitch, don't ask me why, I don't know). I hear different to what's written for some songs, just like shuffle rhythms are often an 'approximation' of what's notated.

[Doddy]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

The best tab uses 'notes' with numbers instead of heads, so it shows the rhythm in the same way (I can 'read' rhythm, but not pitch, don't ask me why, I don't know). I hear different to what's written for some songs, just like shuffle rhythms are often an 'approximation' of what's notated.

I've seen tab with rhythm stems (I don't like tablature, but I'm not getting in to that now).   I think if you're listening to the track and hearing something different to the written part, that's cool, but you've moved in to learning by ear and away from reading.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  If you're focusing on reading though, either for practice or in a gig situation, you sometimes just need to count and play what is written.

There's a way of writing something like a shuffle, that a semi decent reader will know how to play it and be able to feel it.

[dodge_bass]

1 hour ago, Doddy said:

I've seen tab with rhythm stems (I don't like tablature, but I'm not getting in to that now).   I think if you're listening to the track and hearing something different to the written part, that's cool, but you've moved in to learning by ear and away from reading.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  If you're focusing on reading though, either for practice or in a gig situation, you sometimes just need to count and play what is written.

There's a way of writing something like a shuffle, that a semi decent reader will know how to play it and be able to feel it.

Shuffles, like swing are written ‘straight’ but the reader knows to interpret them with the correct feel. Otherwise you end up with loads of dotted quavers / semi-quavers  or crazy triplet rhythms which are a nightmare to read. 

[Doddy]

21 minutes ago, dodge_bass said:

Shuffles, like swing are written ‘straight’ but the reader knows to interpret them with the correct feel. Otherwise you end up with loads of dotted quavers / semi-quavers  or crazy triplet rhythms which are a nightmare to read. 

Exactly- straight with a feel marking at the top. Although it's not uncommon to see them written as dotted quaver/semiquaver patterns.

[dodge_bass]

1 hour ago, Doddy said:

Exactly- straight with a feel marking at the top. Although it's not uncommon to see them written as dotted quaver/semiquaver patterns.

You’re right it’s not uncommon but it’s a PITA when it is!

[Stub Mandrel]

I'm really a by-ear player who uses tab as an aid (rather than a guide - for a start I almost always change the fingering).