The next JV Squier (in your opinion)

[acidbass]

19 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

Good shout, and the Pino style red one.

Superb basses these, although the headstock snapped off mine :( She now wears a Squier CV Jazz neck :)

[OliverBlackman]

Just my 2 pennies - have the values just risen to match the modern equivalent? The Fender Vintera range now retails for a similar price.

It’s similar to the s/h market of the older USA Fender deluxe basses now advertised for around £1k, as well as the American Vintage series, and Musicman USA Stingrays. 

They all used to be advertised considerably cheaper, but since the new prices have taken a leap, so has the older gear. So not necessarily investment material, but just following the times were now in. 

[Bassman68]

8 minutes ago, uk_lefty said:

I don't know if it's because of the Basschat and Facebook group influence (I'm a member of the Aria SB Facebook group) but Westone basses and Aria SBs seem to have rocketed in price in the last few years. Again, I think enthusiasts like to talk up the virtues but once you put something out there on ebay you really see the value, or indeed whether the market wants it at all! 

For lefties it's even harder. There's a gorgeous fretless Ibanez that's been on ebay for months. It didn't sell at 600 quid, I was tempted but could not justify it, and now it's at £1,200 or nearest offer. Have been tempted to message and say "I'll offer you £500 because you couldn't offload it at 600 a few months ago!". If this bass were right handed I think 600 quid would have been a very good deal. 

I’ve been after an Aria SB for a couple of years now & marvel at the prices these fetch, which surprise me given the retro style of these instruments ( I’ve was playing in an 80’s cover band pre-Covid).

Whilst perusing the 80’s Japanese bass scene (Lived through it first time round, even had a JV Precision) another brand that struck me was Ibanez, especially the Roadster series..

I’ve played a few in my time & was always impressed with the build quality, Solid bolt-on necks & quite often DiMarzio pick-ups with good hardware, Often being overlooked in favour of the more sought after (& higher priced) Musician series.

But whilst mention of vintage Squiers, what about the other Fender stylings of Tokai & let’s not forget the rest of the “Lawsuit” Jap basses that brought about the reason for Japanese Fenders/Squiers? Some of the build quality was awful but there were some nice alternatives out there? Even prices of these must have at least doubled/tripled in their time?

[GuyR]

12 hours ago, KevL said:

The success of the Squier JV Series was the result of a few things that are unlikely to occur now. They were made to a high standard in terms of materials (good wood was the norm, US pickups, decent hardware etc), construction (the Japanese had shown the standard of guitars they could make, Dan Smith played that to his advantage), accuracy (the Japanese pretty much made the instruments exactly as per the year being copied), no really limiting budget (these were a main product for Fender whilst the US production was getting sorted out). 

Many excellent points made in the full version of your post.
With regard to the JV jazz basses, they were the first dot-neck versions produced by Fender since 1966, so  for those looking for that specification, there was plenty of pent up demand for a vintage accurate reissue, which had never previously been produced by Fender. 

The Fender logo version was already trading at a Modest premium over the Squier logo when I bought mine in 1983. £220 used against £200 for a new one and £800 for an original 62. 
A number of Fender logo JVs sold at auction last week at up to £1488 including premium, which seems a lot when you can buy a CS relic privately for circa £2k. When JVs went over to Squier logo after 10000 units approx, it was obvious the more desirable originals would increase in value, but less so that the second version did, particularly with the large number made. I have one with a serial number around 75000 from 1984.

In terms of what might be the next JV equivalent, I think the market is more flooded with excellent competing options than ever. The number of overlapping ranges offered by Fender makes it very hard to predict. Anything interesting with a short run - the Solid rosewood neck basses in pink and green produced last year would be my choice if speculating.

Having said that, buy a bass you love to play and the value becomes irrelevant. I still have my JVs bought in 83, 84 and 89/90ish, so even if they had reduced in value, I have had an excellent return on them. I pick one up most days.

[LukeFRC]

9 minutes ago, GuyR said:

The Fender logo version was already trading at a Modest premium over the Squier logo when I bought mine in 1983. £220 used against £200 for a new one and £800 for an original 62. 

£220 - £1500 is 680% rise
An original 1962 Jazz would be more than £5,500 I think... 

[GuyR]

1 minute ago, LukeFRC said:

£220 - £1500 is 680% rise
An original 1962 Jazz would be more than £5,500 I think... 

Shows you where the real value was........possibly still is?

[KevL]

17 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

This is precisely what I’m aiming for in this thread. The internet has a habit of saying ‘you MUST buy this’ - sometimes the people saying it have good reason to say it. The JV Squiers are great guitars (or mostly, as you pointed out KevL) but the internet has placed them on a pedestal. 
 

80s Japanese instrument in general are on the up. Is there anywhere else to look for a great quality instrument that will appreciate in value? 

Yes, it's in the interest of any seller to try and increase the desirability of his guitar. The same for owners, even though they may not be intending to sell at the time. I would say that this has always gone on, it's just that the internet has enabled the word to spread further and faster than the days of magazine articles etc.

Edited December 16, 2020 by KevL
spelling

[KevL]

8 hours ago, King Tut said:

Particularly those that came out before the Pao Ferro fingerboards. I'm not saying they're better but they might be perceived to be. Says he, hoping his first run Flea Sig that he bought as an 'investment' rockets in value!

These Mexican Road Worns may be the range that I was trying to think of (mentioned near the end of my first post).

[KevL]

12 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

Here’s a good example of why JVs are well regarded too - mythology 
as far as I know it was only the first batch of strays that got US pickups. All the rest were Japanese. Which isn’t a problem in my book, but you can see loads of domestic late serial number JV guitars sold claiming to have US hardwear and pickups. 
with mythologising it’s also got “JV” being known with the division between domestic and export models being blurred.

that said JV squiers are great instruments. The early Fender logo Squier series ones are genuine collectors items as there were so few made- so the scarcity has driven the price of them up a load- and then if a fender logo Squier series  one is selling at £1k, why would a Squier logo One made the next week be worth £300 still?

also the context of fender prices has gone up massively across the board recently. If a Late 70s P bass is selling for £2k and early 70s for £3k and CBS era 60s refinished For £3.5-4.5k ... why shouldn’t a great Fender bass from the 1982-3 made in Japan make £1k? 

Easy for people to get confused (or to intentionally confuse others if you are selling) with the various ranges and specs but 21frets.com is the best place to check what's what - I wouldn't call it mythology, though. 

I wasn't trying to write a complete guide to JVs in my long-winded post (although it may have seemed like that) and I'm no expert, just a bit of a fan. Re the pickups, though, it was just the export Squier Strats that had USA pickups (of a few varieties) - I had a late 1983 JV Strat with the commonest pickups with the yellow C and C2 markings. The export Telecaster and basses had Japanese pickups. For domestic models, which had both Fender and Squier brandings, then best to look at 21frets. Do your homework if you are planning to buy any JV!

You are correct with the prices, there's no reason why the JVs should be priced relatively lower than other Fenders, they are great instruments. The 'Fender Squier Series' branded first run export JVs will always be that bit more sought after due to rarity even though they are identical to the 'Squier by Fender' that were made a month or two afterwards - I think it's more the case that Squier JVs have caught up with the market and seen a jump in price. The 'Fender' first run are priced (a few hundred more?) for the collecters market, I think.

You mention scarcity of these first run JVs but I think all JVs have become increasingly sought-after: the number of people learning about them and looking for one has increased (see previous comments on this thread about the internet-effect) but there aren't any more JVs being made to meet this increased demand. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by KevL
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[KevL]

5 hours ago, GuyR said:

Many excellent points made in the full version of your post.
With regard to the JV jazz basses, they were the first dot-neck versions produced by Fender since 1966, so  for those looking for that specification, there was plenty of pent up demand for a vintage accurate reissue, which had never previously been produced by Fender. 

I didn't know this about the dot neck.

Quote

The Fender logo version was already trading at a Modest premium over the Squier logo when I bought mine in 1983. £220 used against £200 for a new one and £800 for an original 62. 
A number of Fender logo JVs sold at auction last week at up to £1488 including premium, which seems a lot when you can buy a CS relic privately for circa £2k. When JVs went over to Squier logo after 10000 units approx, it was obvious the more desirable originals would increase in value, but less so that the second version did, particularly with the large number made. I have one with a serial number around 75000 from 1984.

I think that's about where these Fender Squier Series are now: I was offered a Precision last year for £1350 but wasn't sure how original the pickguard was so I gave it a miss.

Quote

In terms of what might be the next JV equivalent, I think the market is more flooded with excellent competing options than ever. The number of overlapping ranges offered by Fender makes it very hard to predict. Anything interesting with a short run - the Solid rosewood neck basses in pink and green produced last year would be my choice if speculating.

That's it, there's too much out there now, not just from Fender with its umpteen ranges and models The JV stood out at the time due to less competition (ironically, less from Fender USA itself). Yes, there will be a few models from various brands that will gain a bit of a following but I can not see anything having the impact and effect of the JVs.

Quote

Having said that, buy a bass you love to play and the value becomes irrelevant. I still have my JVs bought in 83, 84 and 89/90ish, so even if they had reduced in value, I have had an excellent return on them. I pick one up most days.

I think that's the thing to do nowadays, just buy something you like and play it. Don't try and chase some hype or try and create a myth about a brand or model. I enjoy my G&Ls, I love the history and ethos of their creation but I just enjoy owning them and don't expect to get rich if I ever sold them.

Thanks for an interesting reply.

Kev

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by KevL

[Paul S]

Interestingly, at one point I owned both a Fender Logo JV Precision and an '83 'Squier by Fender' JV Precision.  Both were in original condition save for the Fender logo one having an original JV pickup sourced and retrofitted by @LukeFRC from whom I bought the bass - so still effectively original.  By a small margin the fit and finish of the Fender logo was better but the tone of the later one was different, slightly more aggressive, and more what I wanted.  Plus it was fully 1lb lighter at just 8lbs. (and it is black - I prefer black!)  So the Squier Series by Fender stayed, the Fender logo was moved on.   

[KevL]

2 hours ago, Paul S said:

Interestingly, at one point I owned both a Fender Logo JV Precision and an '83 'Squier by Fender' JV Precision. Both were in original condition save for the Fender logo one having an original JV pickup sourced and retrofitted by @LukeFRC from whom I bought the bass - so still effectively original.  By a small margin the fit and finish of the Fender logo was better but the tone of the later one was different, slightly more aggressive, and more what I wanted. Plus it was fully 1lb lighter at just 8lbs. (and it is black - I prefer black!)  

A few people claim the first run 'Fender' branded JVs are a touch better. I've seen a couple of later Squiers that have had less-than-perfect fit and finish details but I think it's a case of taking each one on its own merit, don't generalise. The pickups for your Precisions would have been Japanese and the 82 (Fender) could well have originally been slightly different to your 83 Squier - the retrofitted one could possibly have differed again, there was a fair bit of inconsistency.

Quote

So the Squier Series by Fender stayed, the Fender logo was moved on.   

'Squier Series' was only on the first run Fender logo models, it then changed to 'Squier by Fender'. I'm sure this is what you meant. I'm not intending to be an ar$€ by writing this, just providing clarity (of an already confusing subject) for anyone doing reasearch.

Edited December 16, 2020 by KevL

[LukeFRC]

2 hours ago, Paul S said:

Interestingly, at one point I owned both a Fender Logo JV Precision and an '83 'Squier by Fender' JV Precision.  Both were in original condition save for the Fender logo one having an original JV pickup sourced and retrofitted by @LukeFRC from whom I bought the bass - so still effectively original.  By a small margin the fit and finish of the Fender logo was better but the tone of the later one was different, slightly more aggressive, and more what I wanted.  Plus it was fully 1lb lighter at just 8lbs. (and it is black - I prefer black!)  So the Squier Series by Fender stayed, the Fender logo was moved on.   

Oddly I preferred it with a different pickup in it. If I had known what I know now, and had the finances I enjoy now rather than when I sold it, I would have kept it and put a different pickup in it. But oh well

[GuyR]

1 hour ago, KevL said:

A few people claim the first run 'Fender' branded JVs are a touch better. I've seen a couple of later Squiers that have had less-than-perfect fit and finish details but I think it's a case of taking each one on its own merit, don't generalise. The pickups for your Precisions would have been Japanese and the 82 (Fender) could well have originally been slightly different to your 83 Squier - the retrofitted one could possibly have differed again, there was a fair bit of inconsistency.

The first run JVs have some minor differences in detail - for instance on the Jazz bass, the Fender logo tortoise scratch plate has one fewer layers of ply than the later version. Not sure if the same is true for other tort plate JVs.

I can't see any difference in fit and finish on my examples. The 84 is noticeably lighter than the Sen ash 82. I'm not sure what th body wood is on the 84 as it is Oly White. When I bought it I tried every JV Jazz in Denmark St. The one I bought was special, so unsurprisingly it is better than the 82. I have an 84 JV Strat which is also fabulous and extremely light. It so outshone the Fender logo 82 Strat I formerly had (which had a serial numbe about 100 away from my 82 Jazz and was an identical piece of wood) that I sold the early example. 

In my opinion, the pickups of JVs in general are the weak point. All mine are unchanged, but I don't think they quite do justice to the potential contained in he unamplifed tone.

[KevL]

 

16 minutes ago, GuyR said:

In my opinion, the pickups of JVs in general are the weak point. All mine are unchanged, but I don't think they quite do justice to the potential contained in he unamplifed tone.

I don't know why the Strat was the only export model to get the US pickups and the Telecaster and basses were given Japanese pickups. 

[LukeFRC]

9 minutes ago, KevL said:

 

I don't know why the Strat was the only export model to get the US pickups and the Telecaster and basses were given Japanese pickups. 

from memory of reading it was only the first batch of Strats. If you are making something overseas for the first time and need a proof of concept then getting your most popular model with US pups so you can compare construction like for like  isn't an awful idea

Edited December 16, 2020 by LukeFRC

[SamPlaysBass]

On 16/12/2020 at 09:36, hubrad said:

USA Peavey.. obviously the T40 is the well known model, but the more basic models are excellent workhorses. I picked up a Predator (Str@t type) a couple of years back, and love its feel; the weak link was the pickups, but that's one of those things we all swap around anyway! Cost me just over a ton, so if I can retire on the proceeds that'll do nicely.

Peavey in general are a great shout. The T-40 is doing the rounds at quite a premium at the minute, but not ridiculous prices. 
 

I bought a Peavey TNT 115 combo 2 or 3 years ago off eBay for £20. It lives in my mates rehearsal room/garage and sounds absolutely brilliant. Older Peavey amps that I’ve used over the last few years (back lines, practise rooms etc) have always been great. They’re heavy, but I’ve always been impressed at the quality of the sound and the fact that 200 watts goes a long way in their amps. Great brand, crap second hand appeal for some reason. We can cash in on that! 

[Lozz196]

5 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

Peavey in general are a great shout. The T-40 is doing the rounds at quite a premium at the minute, but not ridiculous prices. 
 

I bought a Peavey TNT 115 combo 2 or 3 years ago off eBay for £20. It lives in my mates rehearsal room/garage and sounds absolutely brilliant. Older Peavey amps that I’ve used over the last few years (back lines, practise rooms etc) have always been great. They’re heavy, but I’ve always been impressed at the quality of the sound and the fact that 200 watts goes a long way in their amps. Great brand, crap second hand appeal for some reason. We can cash in on that! 

Agree, whenever I’ve used a Peavey, be it amp/cab or combo I’ve been more than happy. Strange really, they just never seemed to me to be that fashionable, even when all bass gear was heavy, yet the sound is superb.

[machinehead]

I'm going to change the direction of this thread slightly and offer the Fender USA Jaguar bass as a future classic and one that will hold its value well. It was only available for one (maybe two?) years.

All other Jaguar basses are Japanese made.  The USA version is a PJ so that offers another difference.  The fact that I own one in the best colour, olympic white, has no bearing on my opinion. 

Frank.

Edited December 18, 2020 by machinehead
spelling

[SamPlaysBass]

19 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Agree, whenever I’ve used a Peavey, be it amp/cab or combo I’ve been more than happy. Strange really, they just never seemed to me to be that fashionable, even when all bass gear was heavy, yet the sound is superb.

Definitely. Laney is another brand that offers brilliant gear for peanuts. That said, the Klipp guitar amps are skyrocketing in price now. Sometimes it takes a long time for the legendary status to be acquired and then people start hunting them down. 

 

13 hours ago, machinehead said:

I'm going to change the direction of this thread slightly and offer the Fender USA Jaguar bass as a future classic and one that will hold its value well. It was only available for one (maybe two?) years.

All other Jaguar basses are Japanese made.  The USA version is a PJ so that offers another difference.  The fact that I own one in the best colour, olympic white, has no bearing on my opinion. 

Frank.

They are great looking basses, and yours will probably secure top whack for its US made appeal. Where it’s made has such an impact on things. That seems to be a key factor - Japanese budget instruments becoming big money, American stuff holds its value for the remainder of it its life. Most Chinese stuff is carted off to the bin until something gets a great reputation. 

[Tim Chapple]

On 15/12/2020 at 12:47, Paul S said:

The Chinese Squier 'Vista Series' Musicmasters seem to have rocketed in price recently.  I had one for a while and would say it was an excellent little bass.  A league better than the Fender Musicmaster I had at the same time.   But they seem to change hands for more than MIJ or more recent P/J Mustangs, which seems a little unwarranted to me.

Hated the Vista's neck... very "square" and uncomfortable

Both the MIJ and PJ win hands down in terms of playability.

I remember my old 70's Musicmaster had a lovely neck too.

[ead]

How about the MIJ/CIJ Geddy Lee Js.  Only the MIM or MIA variant now so they may be worth watching.  I've always had a soft spot for the Squier Silver Series too.

Then there is always the odd little side model Yamaha do e.g. the Yamaha Billy Sheehan Attitude Special that may do well in the post apocalypse.

[meterman]

On 15/12/2020 at 12:47, SamPlaysBass said:

🚨 Contentious thread alert 🚨 

I’ve been looking at JV Squiers recently, and the prices are well over a grand now. 2 years ago, I’d have said that £750 was the norm for a fair condition JV P or J bass. I know they are great instruments and in some people’s view as close as you can get to an original 60s Pre-CBS job, but they’re only worth what people will pay for them. Judging by the prices, someone must be buying them!

This made me think. ‘What’s the next JV Squier?’ - in other words, which fairly innocuous bass/amp/pedal etc. do you predict will shoot up in value when people catch on to how good they are? 

Or, conversely, what internet hype will make an average bass/amp/pedal shoot up in value, justly or unjustly?

My tuppence goes on 80s/90s era Trace Elliot stuff because they are louder than the Big Bang and cheap as chips currently. Your turn! 

Immediately after the JV series Squier continued putting out quality instruments that were really brilliant value for money. Some here have already mentioned the MIJ Bullet basses, but tbh I've played a lot of pre-90 Squiers and they've all been pretty decent. Even now they still do some great instruments. My go to guitar for live gigs is a s/h £150 Squier 72 Thinline Tele and it's ace. Might be Chinese or Indonesian, I can't remember now and it doesn't matter anyway. But definitely the early MIJ Squier Bullets. Prices started going up on them a couple of years ago, both in the UK and the US, Japan etc. They're just quality instruments and folks have started cottoning on to them.

[martin8708]

I picked up. JV Strat quite a few years ago and it will never leave , Custom Shop strats have come and gone , but the JV is still the guitar I pick up.

Another future collectable?  , how about the Yamaha BB 1200/2000 range .

I have had 3  1200's , I stupidly sold them in pursuit of the ideal Fender P bass , but as Joni Mitchell sang , " you don't know what you've got , till its gone "

[TheGreek]

On 16/12/2020 at 09:38, uk_lefty said:

Westone basses and Aria SBs seem to have rocketed in price in the last few years.

Check the prices for the Thunder 1A - five years ago you could find them for under £100 - they're now selling for upwards of £300 on eBay. The neck thru 11 and 111 series are now selling for £700+.

Similar story with BC Nanyos which are finally starting to realise prices acknowledging how well built they are. Rarely see them for under £100 anymore - I think I've bought at least 4 in that ballpark.

I think that both the above will be good investments for the future - if there is a future that is...