Recording acoustic guitar

[leftybassman392]

Bit of a techie question, this.

As some here will know, I've recently decided to take the plunge and get back into recording after a gap of 10 years.

I'm expecting that quite a lot of what I record will be performed on an acoustic guitar. That being the case, I want to set up my recording gear in such a way as to optimise it for that format.

What I used to do is to have the main mic (which at the time was an AT4033) pointed at the neck/body join from around 30 cm, a second mic (usually one of my pencil mics) pointing at the neck/headstock  from around the same distance to pick up a bit of extra resonance, and where available a suitably EQ'd feed from the guitar's preamp, partly as a backup but also to give me the option of blending a bit of it into the main feed. Having bought the NT1A as my main mic, I'm now looking at a C1000S Mk.4 as a second string. (I used to have 2 of them so they're a known quantity to me) - cheap as chips ATM (£88 from Amazon) and still a very good unit IMHO.

I'd greatly like to hear what other setups members use to record acoustics (I also plan to get my 5- string banjo into action at some point so a bit of advice on that wouldn't go amiss either). I'm planning to do a bit of experimentation before committing to anything remotely serious, so any thoughts you have would be appreciated.

As a bit of a side-issue, the C1000S has a choice of polar patterns. I'm looking at using it in hypercardioid mode to minimise side reflections (I'll be recording in a room with hard walls either side that will be difficult to damp properly without considerable disruption). Any thoughts?

 

 

[Matt P]

the last couple of times i did this i used a pair of AKG P120's placed pretty much as you described, i also ran a feed from the internal pickup as i wasn't short of inputs and the guitar has a really nice mic/pickup fitted (AER AK-15) i've used the  same guitar in a studio and got compliments from the engineer on the plugged in sound (i think it made it onto the final mix)

to help with the room i usually try to walk round whilst playing the guitar to see if i can hear a sweet spot in the room before i set up, a few cushions/blankets/duvets can work really well if you can find something to hang them off.

 

I am not an expert though, just a keen amateur, i'm sure some more experienced people will be along shortly.

 

Matt

[leftybassman392]

Thanks for that.

The room seems not too bad actually, but walking around is not feasible as there's really only one place I can set up. Good news is that there'll be soft furnishings in front of me and heavy curtains behind. One wall I could cover with a duvet at need, but the 4th wall is the problem. I have some big pieces of foam from an old mattress in the loft so if all else fails I can use them, but it would be a bit of a ballache to have to retrieve them every time I need them and put them back when I've finished (which I would have to do). Hence the query about the hypercardioid response pattern. The plan would be to angle the C1000 so as to have the 4th wall in it's null region.

ETA: I should add that I have a mic screen that I'll be using with the NT1A, which should help a little.

Edited December 15, 2020 by leftybassman392

[Matt P]

sounds like a good setup to me, you might consider one of the smaller mic screens to go with the c1000 to help out in that null zone, they're pretty cheap, or a chunk of foam with the mic threaded through it would probaly work ok

something like this but home made?

the t.akustik Micscreen flex Mini – Thomann UK

 

Matt

[leftybassman392]

Looks handy. The industry seems to be a bit dismissive of mic screens from what I've seen and read, but if it helps in my situation then I don't really need to care what industry pros say!

[DaytonaRik]

Don't be afraid to try different mics, especially if you've got plenty of channels and will be blending the signals into a single acoustic guitar buss later.  If it doesn't work then no problems...but if it does then it's a winner.  There's no right or wrong, just what works for you in your particular instance.  Go mad - throw a kick drum mic in there and see what happens when it's blended in!

I've often recorded acoustic guitars a couple of feet away from heavy floor length curtains which helps reduce reflections.

[skankdelvar]

Couple of things:

* I only really record acoustic for use as a rhythm part and it's usually in the background. So I point one mic at the 12th fret, varying the lateral angle relative to the body depending on whether I want to pick up some boom or not. If there's too much boom I high-pass the track. If there's not enough jangle I cut below 800hz and boost around 3.5khz (and sometimes at 10khz though this can sometimes pull up room noise).

* In the past I've pointed one mic at the 12th fret and another at about 45 degrees to the soundhole. As it's a two mic set up I try clean up any comb filtering with a phase alignment tool on one of the tracks , example (https://www.audiocation.de/en/plugin ).

* In the past I've regretted not having two identical mics, mainly because I'd like to try (i) the thing where you put both mics on a t-bar then angle the caps at 90 degrees to each other for 'real' stereo and also (ii) mid-side recording. 

* As well as (or instead of) treating the room you could invest in a gobo or two (an acoustic screen but I like the word gobo better because it's funny). 

Thomann sell gobos (e.g. https://www.thomann.de/gb/clearsonic_s2466x2_s5_2d_sorber.htm), as do any number of other suppliers and manufacturers.

Being skint I've been thinking about getting a couple of second-hand office partitions, slapping something on them (acoustic foam, rockwall) and screwing on some casters on so I can shove them in the corner when not in use. Two partitions gets you a V, three partitions gets you an open sided box. Four partitions is possibly overkill.

Tip 1: Get a rectangular guitar case,  stand it  on end then open it to form a V (so it stands up on its own) then position it in front of you and the mic when you record. It works as a cheap and dirty small scale gobo (as long as you're recording sitting down). Enhancement: a lining of acoustic foam inside the body compartment and inside the lid gets you a two-sided, midget 'isolation booth'.

Tip 2: EQ-ing - Record some blank air in the room, set the playback to loop. Slot in an EQ plug-in, choose a band, narrow it right down, boost it by 5-10db. You should see a sharp, very narrow peak in the EQ graphic. Hit play. Sweep the EQ peak backwards and forwards until you find an exaggeratedly nasty noise. Reverse the boost so it's a cut. If you find more than one nasty room noise, cut that as well. But keep it narrow.

After you've recorded your guitar, try cutting a narrow-ish point somewhere between 300-500hz to reduce any 'boxiness'.  Experiment with a high pass set at 60hz to cut rumble and a low pass starting somewhere above 12khz to take out nasty 'digital' high end, also room 'hiss'. If your earlier room noise correction is getting in the way of a nice sound try reducing the cuts.

Edited December 15, 2020 by skankdelvar

[skankdelvar]

Forgot:

Really good article by Mike Senior here https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/recording-acoustic-guitar

[BigRedX]

Always consider a mic positioned over the player's shoulder pointing down; as this will come reasonably close to capturing the sound that the player hears which may well be the sound that they want.

[skankdelvar]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

Always consider a mic positioned over the player's shoulder pointing down; as this will come reasonably close to capturing the sound that the player hears which may well be the sound that they want.

 Good point, well made.

For stereo recording Huw Price suggests using two mics, one over each shoulder. I've never tried it but it sounds like fun.

[leftybassman392]

27 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Always consider a mic positioned over the player's shoulder pointing down; as this will come reasonably close to capturing the sound that the player hears which may well be the sound that they want.

Indeed. I've used that technique before and got some good results with it. Thanks for the reminder though.

All grist to the mill at this point. My recording will be pretty low-key and for my own satisfaction (certainly at this stage I have no intention of trying to revive a recording career that's been dead for 10 years). If I do produce something I'm happy with though, I may well put it up for review. Watch this space...

[leftybassman392]

38 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

Couple of things:

* I only really record acoustic for use as a rhythm part and it's usually in the background. So I point one mic at the 12th fret, varying the lateral angle relative to the body depending on whether I want to pick up some boom or not. If there's too much boom I high-pass the track. If there's not enough jangle I cut below 800hz and boost around 3.5khz (and sometimes at 10khz though this can sometimes pull up room noise).

* In the past I've pointed one mic at the 12th fret and another at about 45 degrees to the soundhole. As it's a two mic set up I try clean up any comb filtering with a phase alignment tool on one of the tracks , example (https://www.audiocation.de/en/plugin ).

* In the past I've regretted not having two identical mics, mainly because I'd like to try (i) the thing where you put both mics on a t-bar then angle the caps at 90 degrees to each other for 'real' stereo and also (ii) mid-side recording. 

* As well as (or instead of) treating the room you could invest in a gobo or two (an acoustic screen but I like the word gobo better because it's funny). 

Thomann sell gobos (e.g. https://www.thomann.de/gb/clearsonic_s2466x2_s5_2d_sorber.htm), as do any number of other suppliers and manufacturers.

Being skint I've been thinking about getting a couple of second-hand office partitions, slapping something on them (acoustic foam, rockwall) and screwing on some casters on so I can shove them in the corner when not in use. Two partitions gets you a V, three partitions gets you an open sided box. Four partitions is possibly overkill.

Tip 1: Get a rectangular guitar case,  stand it  on end then open it to form a V (so it stands up on its own) then position it in front of you and the mic when you record. It works as a cheap and dirty small scale gobo (as long as you're recording sitting down). Enhancement: a lining of acoustic foam inside the body compartment and inside the lid gets you a two-sided, midget 'isolation booth'.

Tip 2: EQ-ing - Record some blank air in the room, set the playback to loop. Slot in an EQ plug-in, choose a band, narrow it right down, boost it by 5-10db. You should see a sharp, very narrow peak in the EQ graphic. Hit play. Sweep the EQ peak backwards and forwards until you find an exaggeratedly nasty noise. Reverse the boost so it's a cut. If you find more than one nasty room noise, cut that as well. But keep it narrow.

After you've recorded your guitar, try cutting a narrow-ish point somewhere between 300-500hz to reduce any 'boxiness'.  Experiment with a high pass set at 60hz to cut rumble and a low pass starting somewhere above 12khz to take out nasty 'digital' high end, also room 'hiss'. If your earlier room noise correction is getting in the way of a nice sound try reducing the cuts.

Thanks for that Paul. Excellent advice as always. I do like the idea of open guitar cases as sound deadening.

[leftybassman392]

Update, I think I'm going to get an AKG P170 rather than the C1000S. It looks like a better mic for less money.

Or I might push the boat out and get a matched pair of Rode M5s. Amazon has a really good price on them right now.

If I were getting properly serious about it I'd get a matched pair of C451s (which seem to be one of the industry standards for recording acoustic guitar), but I can't justify the price at this point.

 

[bazzbass]

I got interesting results from an SE X1 condensor and the Aston Halo reflection filter I use for vocals.

I think best result was with the halo over the soundhole with the mic pointing towards the neck joint.

[Bigguy2017]

If you're recording solo guitar and not guitar to for use in a mix, then try a live room/space with a high ceiling and a nice open ambience.

Mix close mic and room mic to taste.

[leftybassman392]

27 minutes ago, Bigguy2017 said:

If you're recording solo guitar and not guitar to for use in a mix, then try a live room/space with a high ceiling and a nice open ambience.

Mix close mic and room mic to taste.

There's unlikely to be many band mixes of the kind I think you're talking about. I like the open space idea, but unfortunately none of the rooms is big enough to make it feasible. Something else to look at and experiment with though.

 

3 hours ago, bazzbass said:

I got interesting results from an SE X1 condensor and the Aston Halo reflection filter I use for vocals.

I think best result was with the halo over the soundhole with the mic pointing towards the neck joint.

Thanks for that. I have a mic screen, and one setup I'm going to look at is very similar to this. Watch this space...

Edited December 16, 2020 by leftybassman392

[leftybassman392]

Update: I've invested in a matched pair of Rode M5s. I was tempted to go for the more expensive NT5s, but couldn't justify the extra cost given the modest nature of the work. If I was properly serious about it of course, I'd have bought C451s and lived on bread & water for a while. But I'm not. So I didn't.

This gives me quite a lot more versatility for a fairly modest extra outlay (around £150 for the mics and the stereo gantry - the NT5s would have been closer to £300 all in ).

Right now it's all money going out and nothing to show for it, but in truth I was never going to be starting on this until the new year anyway, so all good at this stage.

First thing to do is spend time reaquainting myself with guitars that I mostly haven't played in properly for a year or more (and not gigged for a lot longer than that!). I reckon that'll take me a week or two at least. The technique's still in there somewhere; all I have to do is retrieve it...

 

[bazzbass]

15 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

Update: I've invested in a matched pair of Rode M5s.

 

I have those, great for drum overheads and they are good to stereo record acoustic guitars, one near the neck the other near the soundhole.

[grenadillabama]

On 16/12/2020 at 03:38, Bigguy2017 said:

If you're recording solo guitar and not guitar to for use in a mix, then try a live room/space with a high ceiling and a nice open ambience.

Mix close mic and room mic to taste.

I have done this with gtr and it sounds like a bigger room (good). Also , add reverb or delay to the room mic to make it sound like a big room.

[skankdelvar]

16 hours ago, leftybassman392 said:

First thing to do is spend time reaquainting myself with guitars that I mostly haven't played in properly for a year or more and say 'Ooh, those strings look really manky and the frets could do with a polish and - Christ! - the gunge on that fingerboard must be an inch deep' and then find I've run out of guitar strings and when I go online I'll find out that no one's shipping strings until late January because delays in reaction to CovXit so I'll just go and watch Countdown instead.

FTFY