Thomann and deliveries to the UK

[Steve Browning]

Distance selling is only relevant within the EU.

There will be many EU businesses that had to register under this scheme thst will no longer need to be registered. 

In theory, no non UK seller will charge us VAT but HMRC will charge UK VAT on import. 

The main difference we will see will be VAT on goods bought from private sellers outside the UK and non UK buyers will now have to pay VAT etc when the gear gets to them. 

Second hand gear is now between 16 and 25% more, depending on the country. 

 

[nilebodgers]

Yes, you are right - I didn’t spot the date on the hmrc doc.

I just checked and vat has disappeared off the thomann uk checkout process. Paying just the import vat would be ok, but every order is going to be hit with a rip-off handling charge. Royal Mail was £8 last time I imported anything, I don’t imagine other couriers are cheaper.

That will make Thomann uneconomic for smaller orders now. I was building up an order to go week after next, but I won’t bother and will buy in the uk now.

[CookPassBabtridge]

Thanks, useful stuff. This essentially means that I’ll now only be buying from our European friends when I can’t find something anywhere in the UK. Bit of a shame seeing as I’ve had good service from the Thommans and the Muzikers of this world and now won’t be using them through no fault of their own. 

[Kiwi]

Someone should open a click and collect in Calais or Le Harve

[Burns-bass]

5 hours ago, CookPassBabtridge said:

Thanks, useful stuff. This essentially means that I’ll now only be buying from our European friends when I can’t find something anywhere in the UK. Bit of a shame seeing as I’ve had good service from the Thommans and the Muzikers of this world and now won’t be using them through no fault of their own. 

But good for U.K. businesses that employ people here and pay tax here too.

[Steve Browning]

7 hours ago, nilebodgers said:

Yes, you are right - I didn’t spot the date on the hmrc doc.

I just checked and vat has disappeared off the thomann uk checkout process. Paying just the import vat would be ok, but every order is going to be hit with a rip-off handling charge. Royal Mail was £8 last time I imported anything, I don’t imagine other couriers are cheaper.

That will make Thomann uneconomic for smaller orders now. I was building up an order to go week after next, but I won’t bother and will buy in the uk now.

The charge you pay is the fee for Royal Mail to pay the VAT on your behalf. Not too bad against the hassle of arranging the paperwork and not having your stuff stuck at Dover until you pay it. 

[nilebodgers]

11 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

The charge you pay is the fee for Royal Mail to pay the VAT on your behalf. Not too bad against the hassle of arranging the paperwork and not having your stuff stuck at Dover until you pay it. 

Absolutely, but easier and cheaper just not to buy from shops in the EU unless no choice.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

But good for U.K. businesses that employ people here and pay tax here too.

Not necessarily - I bought something recently because it was a) available only in the EU and b) to have ordered it from a UK shop would have been 25% more expensive. In our new world I just wouldn’t have bought it. Yes, we can seek alternatives but it’s because we will have no other sensible choice. And now UK business know that for such items we’re unlikely to go elsewhere, will prices drop? I very much doubt it. It’s more likely given current world situation that we will be paying more for less choice.

[Burns-bass]

48 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Not necessarily - I bought something recently because it was a) available only in the EU and b) to have ordered it from a UK shop would have been 25% more expensive. In our new world I just wouldn’t have bought it. Yes, we can seek alternatives but it’s because we will have no other sensible choice. And now UK business know that for such items we’re unlikely to go elsewhere, will prices drop? I very much doubt it. It’s more likely given current world situation that we will be paying more for less choice.

It’s tough isn’t it? Personally, I despise the business models of Amazon and am fully aware that the prices are only achievable through dubious business practices but every penny I save I can spend on my family, so I’ll often use them. 

My point was a glib one, and I’m as guilty as anyone else. If we can agree effective trade deals, then prices could drop. It’s up to those in charge to make the best of this situation. 

There still seems to be a residual hangover around the B word that shall never be used. Ultimately, we now need to adapt. If that means embracing new business models or approaches then so be it. 

[TheLowDown]

It appears to be around 19% VAT that we add on to get the final price we pay minus shipping costs(it used to be free above £100 but now it's £135), which is the VAT rate of Germany.

[Steve Browning]

Buying from Thomann, from the UK will result in a VAT free sale from Thomann. Your bill from HMRC (before they release your goods to you) is 20% UK VAT on the combined cost of the goods plus any shipping charge. There will be a small additional charge for providing this facility.

Let's take an example -  a £300 bass (net of any VAT).

£300 + £25 delivery = £325 + £65 VAT plus £10 (at a guess) for using the facility. Your £300 bass is now £400

Before Brexit you would have paid £300 + £60 (UK VAT) + £25 delivery = £385.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Steve Browning

[Doctor J]

Before Brexit you paid your local VAT rate from Thomann, not the German VAT rate. Depending on the business' sales per annum to that country, if they exceeded 80 grand you pay your local rate, the tax rate of the recipient not the VAT rate of the seller. Thomann comfortably exceeded 80k PA sales to the UK so all UK residents paid the UK VAT rate in accordance with EU law.

[Steve Browning]

16 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Before Brexit you paid your local VAT rate from Thomann, not the German VAT rate. Depending on the business' sales per annum to that country, if they exceeded 80 grand you pay your local rate, the tax rate of the recipient not the VAT rate of the seller. Thomann comfortably exceeded 80k PA sales to the UK so all UK residents paid the UK VAT rate in accordance with EU law.

That is distance selling. It is an EU thing so Thomann will no longer have a UK registration (eventually).

Edited January 1, 2021 by Steve Browning

[TheLowDown]

Well the amount appeared to be around 19.2% anyway, which also happens to be the German rate. Not sure how it all works yet.

 

 

What's this "£25 delivery cost"?

 

[Steve Browning]

2 minutes ago, TheLowDown said:

Well the amount appeared to be around 19.2% anyway, which also happens to be the German rate. Not sure how it all works yet.

 

 

What's this "£25 delivery cost"?

 

Plucked out of the air to give a comparison, hence it was the same in both examples. Import VAT is charged on the delivery cost too.

[TheLowDown]

5 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

Plucked out of the air to give a comparison, hence it was the same in both examples. Import VAT is charged on the delivery cost too.

Worth bearing in mind that there is no delivery cost on items above £135. Just to be clear.

Edited January 1, 2021 by TheLowDown

[Steve Browning]

Just now, TheLowDown said:

There is no delivery cost on items above £135.

For Thomann maybe (and at the moment). Not every site is the same. No need to be quite so aggressive about it.

Actually, Thomann won't maintain their UK registration as it's a result of distance selling and that only affects the EU. Shall I underline that?

[TheLowDown]

1 minute ago, Steve Browning said:

For Thomann maybe (and at the moment). Not every site is the same. No need to be quite so aggressive about it.

Actually, Thomann won't maintain their UK registration as it's a result of distance selling and that only affects the EU. Shall I underline that?

The underlining is not being aggressive, it's a link to Thomann's website showing the delivery costs.

[Steve Browning]

I sit corrected.

[Stub Mandrel]

18 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

Distance selling is only relevant within the EU.

There will be many EU businesses that had to register under this scheme thst will no longer need to be registered. 

In theory, no non UK seller will charge us VAT but HMRC will charge UK VAT on import. 

The main difference we will see will be VAT on goods bought from private sellers outside the UK and non UK buyers will now have to pay VAT etc when the gear gets to them. 

Second hand gear is now between 16 and 25% more, depending on the country. 

 

A mate of mine imports, mostly from China, but also from EU and other sources.

He also sells significant amounts to the EU.

He's looking at an investment in five figures to get an EU based office (in a cheaper eastern EU country) as a cheaper-in-the-long-run alternative to registering for VAT in each individual EU country.

Painful private purchases is that the import duty + vat + handing fee we had to bear on US imports now applies to the EU as well.

Presence or absence of an EU deal is/was irrelevant to these issues as they are unrelated to tariffs.

Oh, and CITES now applies to UK <-> Europe so be careful taking your rosewood fingerboard overseas...

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Stub Mandrel
edit for clarity

[JohnR]

I was just browsing Thomann and put a Fender Jazz into my basket only to receive a message that Fender won't allow them to ship to the UK.

[Steve Browning]

UIK businesses with significant EU activity are going to be seriously affected for some considerable time, it's a plain and simple fact.

The company I work for is a multi-national (but UK based) we will be pretty much cutting the UK adrift and maintaining an EU subsidiary to deal with any EU trade (of which there is €millions). We already have subsidiaries in a number of EU countries but I have nothing but sympathy for your friend.

Our head of logistics has just tested positive for covid, too, just to add spice to the mix!!

[nilebodgers]

1 minute ago, JohnR said:

I was just browsing Thomann and put a Fender Jazz into my basket only to receive a message that Fender won't allow them to ship to the UK.

The plot thickens!

[Steve Browning]

2 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I was just browsing Thomann and put a Fender Jazz into my basket only to receive a message that Fender won't allow them to ship to the UK.

...; and so it begins.

[CookPassBabtridge]

19 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I was just browsing Thomann and put a Fender Jazz into my basket only to receive a message that Fender won't allow them to ship to the UK.

Interesting. What would the logic there be then? The concept is you can only purchase our product domestically, and not buy abroad, regardless of duties and VAT. Odd.

On the subject of import duties, surely a decent trade deal with the EU would remove this?

(Perhaps I should just stop being lazy and try to read through the terms of the deal myself 🙂)