Buying from EU private sellers - 20% VAT from 1 Jan 2021

[Steve Browning]

No business will agree to that,  it's fraud. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

3 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

No business will agree to that,  it's fraud. 

We're not talking about businesses. We're talking about private sellers. In my view charging VAT on second hand, none commercial goods is just plain wrong. 

[Steve Browning]

It's still fraud. No other word for it. 

[Doctor J]

The obligation is on the buyer to comply with tax laws. If you intentionally try to circumvent these laws by having something marked as a gift or declare the value as lower than it actually is, that is fraud, as Steve says.

[Newfoundfreedom]

Call it what you want. I won't be paying it if I can find a way around it. 

[Steve Browning]

31 minutes ago, karlfer said:

Massive thanks to @Steve Browning for all his work for us on this matter.

No problem and other people have also contributed. It's all going to be difficult to begin with. 

Carrier business have had little practical guidance and HMRC are nowhere near ready. It's going to be very messy. 

The biggest difference will be in second hand stuff. That is now subject to VAT where it wasn't before. New gear from businesses will cost more but not necessarily a huge amount. 

 

[Doctor J]

It doesn't matter what I call it. It's the law.

[Steve Browning]

There is a £39 limit on gifts it turns out. 

Your wheeze won't work. HMRC know the value of stuff. Some of them are even bass players. 

It's infuriating but inevitable. 

[Newfoundfreedom]

Looks like any future purchases will be getting carried in friends suitcases then. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by Newfoundfreedom

[Steve Browning]

Of course they will.  Well done,  you're a criminal mastermind. 

[Steve Browning]

Hold on, you're not Mick  Mason are you? He's also an unapologetic fraudster. 

[peteb]

23 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

No problem and other people have also contributed. It's all going to be difficult to begin with. 

Carrier business have had little practical guidance and HMRC are nowhere near ready. It's going to be very messy. 

The biggest difference will be in second hand stuff. That is now subject to VAT where it wasn't before. New gear from businesses will cost more but not necessarily a huge amount. 

 

 

23 minutes ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Call it what you want. I won't be paying it if I can find a way around it. 

Good luck to you if you can get away with it, but it is likely that there will be checks if anything seems suspicious! It will be a bit hit and miss at best and you could find yourself in an awkward situation. 

[triplebass]

but they’d have to prove i paid more than i’m stating, right? or are they going to check an average used or new price ATM?

i mean if somebody wants to sell me a Fodera for 300, that’s their right, isn’t it? or lend it to me? do the authorities have the right to control bank or paypal transfers?

what about noname basses built from different parts, how are they going to determine the value?

actually now i remember getting 2 sets of doublebass strings as a gift from the company in Switzerland and customs checked prices online and charged vat and duty. i had them sent back and brought in by a friend who picked them up locally. the guy at customs got angry when i refused to pay tax and duty, asked what’s so special about me that i get strings as a gift and was wondering why he doesn’t get any gifts :)) told me even all gifts should be taxed, birthday, christmas, valentine’s.. priceless..

anyway, i know there’s not going to be many ways about it, will have to get GAS treatment locally..

[Doctor J]

Just to counsel caution at this point, if you're caught trying to defraud The Man it won't end well for you. Import duty is a bitter pill to swallow but fines are no fun at all. Also, consider that asking a stranger, the one selling the instrument to you, to knowingly declare the value lower to help you defraud The Man isn't a good place to find yourself and also makes the seller an accomplice in the fraud attempt. Shops will not mark down values and it's a lot to ask a private seller to do. Consider that we've got a big thread running about a chap trying to defraud others at the moment and that making statements on a public forum about efforts to defraud aren't going to be the brightest things you have ever done.

 

[LukeFRC]

8 minutes ago, triplebass said:

do the authorities have the right to control bank or paypal transfers?

Pretty sure they do across international borders. Especially in relation on people trying to dodge taxes. 

I don’t like it any more than anyone else, but this kinda relationship with Europe was on the ballot in 2016 and like it or not the side won that means prices go up and we have VAT on secondhand stuff. That’s what ppl voted for, that’s what we have, that’s what we will need to get used to. like you say - we will have to shop secondhand locally 

[Steve Browning]

All goods require a  customs declaration. This records the value for taxation etc purposes. The sender will complete it. 

Customs don't check everything but if you pay 300 quid for a Fodera and it ends up being confiscated at Customs then you don't seem too clever. 

In my VAT man days I saw it all the time. People who thought they could outwit the system. Some succeeded but the vast majority didn't. 

[triplebass]

well, still a slight difference in my eyes between MM doing his tricks on people and people buying second hand stuff from private sellers and not loving TheMan for getting his share every time the Holy Grail changes hands...

back to taming my GAS...

 

[Bunion]

47 minutes ago, triplebass said:

mean if somebody wants to sell me a Fodera for 300, that’s their right, isn’t it?

That’s great until it goes missing or gets damaged  in the postal system and the owner/sender tries to claim for it on the insurance...

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Steve Browning said:

The biggest difference will be in second hand stuff. That is now subject to VAT where it wasn't before. New gear from businesses will cost more but not necessarily a huge amount. 

And just to be clear, which hopefully it is in the context of this thread, Steve is just referring to cross border sales of used bass gear between GB and EU. 

ie second hand stuff sold by private sellers in GB to other GB purchasers will not have this additional VAT. 

As @chris_b said a while back, surely there are enough sellers within GB to buy from if you are living in GB (and similarly within the EU to buy from if you are living in the EU) to be able to avoid the second layer of VAT on private used purchases?

@Steve Browning - do you think the UK and EU were aware of this double layer of VAT issue? Typically tax treaties work quite hard to avoid double taxation such as this. If not, it could certainly be something worth raising via our professional organisations. 

 

[ambient]

I posted some copies of a magazine that I publish to the USA, and to the EU yesterday. You have to state exactly what’s inside the envelope, the weight and obviously the value. Customs use that and the postage costs to ascertain the amount of any duty and/or VAT due. You can obviously undervalue the item, they’re not stupid though, and I suspect they’d be pretty aggrieved if your actions were suggestive that they are. It’s pretty simple for them to go online and discover the true value of whatever’s sat in front of them. Sure, you can sell anything for whatever low price you want, it’s pretty unlikely that you’ll actually do that though - however if anyone is feeling very generous, I’d love a 6 string Fodera MG please, I’ve got about £300 saved.

As someone’s already pointed out, there’s the matter of insurance should whatever you’re transporting get lost or damaged in-transit.

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, ambient said:

... however if anyone is feeling very generous, I’d love a 6 string Fodera MG please, I’ve got about £300 saved.

5 string in my case, preferably with a 3 band EQ and passive option, please. 

[Steve Browning]

The spanner in the works is that this is how it has always worked for second hand goods from outside the EU. It would be unfair not to treat EU countries in the same way. 

I would be doubtful it was considered as any kind of negotiation point because it's the same in either direction. 

This is certainly a situation where the result of Brexit is detrimental to people buying second hand goods from the EU or selling to people in the EU. 

I don't think it's a political statement to say that we musicians are adversely affected by the changes. 

Maybe the rules will evolve over time. We have the regulatory right to change whatever we want to, of course. 

 

[Bunion]

You can always take your Rockson bass guitar ‘on tour’ and when you get home,  open the case to the horror it’s been replaced with a 1963 fender precision all original relic. 
who would be do cruel as to replace your shiney with a dusty old lump of wood...

oh the humanity...

[ambient]

31 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

The spanner in the works is that this is how it has always worked for second hand goods from outside the EU. It would be unfair not to treat EU countries in the same way. 

I would be doubtful it was considered as any kind of negotiation point because it's the same in either direction. 

This is certainly a situation where the result of Brexit is detrimental to people buying second hand goods from the EU or selling to people in the EU. 

I don't think it's a political statement to say that we musicians are adversely affected by the changes. 

Maybe the rules will evolve over time. We have the regulatory right to change whatever we want to, of course. 

 

It applies to everything being sold across the border, so it’s not just affecting musicians. I doubt it’s going to change, it hasn’t where it’s applied for sales with any other country. I think it’s only a matter of time before we rejoin anyway tbh

 

18 minutes ago, Bunion said:

You can always take your Rockson bass guitar ‘on tour’ and when you get home,  open the case to the horror it’s been replaced with a 1963 fender precision all original relic. 
who would be do cruel as to replace your shiney with a dusty old lump of wood...

oh the humanity...

I do know someone who tried that coming back from playing in the USA. He was asked to prove that it had been with him when he flew out, which was a little difficult because it wasn’t mentioned on the carnet, he couldn’t produce any receipts or other documents relating to it - other than the receipt from whichever shop he’d bought it from in the USA. It ended up being confiscated, I believe he had to pay quite a large fine on top of the duty and import charges, though he did eventually get it back.

Edited January 1, 2021 by ambient

[Bunion]

Ahh the perils of crime