Buying from EU private sellers - 20% VAT from 1 Jan 2021

[Downunderwonder]

I am not sure if it still applies here in NZ but it used to be that anyone could get an export certificate and claim back GST ( aka VAT ) on items removed from the country.

That being the case you would need a private seller to jump the bureaucratic hoops but for a high value bass they might do it to make a sale. Then their sale price would be less their local VAT embodied in the item. You pay your local VAT at the border.

In NZ they determined that the new local value has the cost of shipping added to the sale price. Afaik we still get a free pass on anything less than $400 value.

Amazon has to charge NZ sales tax on everything as if they were a NZ entity.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Downunderwonder

[Al Krow]

That would be superb if something similar was available here. 

I guess one obvious problem is if you were the second owner and hadn't paid any GST/VAT when you bought it off the first owner. Would there actually be anything to reclaim? 

[Downunderwonder]

13 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

That would be superb if something similar was available here. 

I guess one obvious problem is if you were the second owner and hadn't paid any GST/VAT when you bought it off the first owner. Would there actually be anything to reclaim? 

Embodied sales tax is worked out pro rata with the depreciated value.

That sort if calculation only applies to import export. Within NZ there's no GST payable on private sales of 2nd hand goods. If you are a GST registered buyer you can claim the GST and have to pay GST on resale.

[BlueMoon]

What about a "new" reliced instrument purchased from a business that declares the VAT?

If the package is declared, but opened for inspection, I'd like to imagine the job of convincing an inspector. "Sure guv, you can see it's brand new!"

I have this very scenario likely to play out in the next few months (UK to EU).

[LukeFRC]

6 minutes ago, BlueMoon said:

What about a "new" reliced instrument purchased from a business that declares the VAT?

If the package is declared, but opened for inspection, I'd like to imagine the job of convincing an inspector. "Sure guv, you can see it's brand new!"

I have this very scenario likely to play out in the next few months (UK to EU).

Stick the sales receipt including VAT in the case with you- then you can prove it’s age and vat status (and If it’s a relic of a pre CBS fender, that it’s not got Brazilian rosewood In it) 

[Nicko]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

I am not sure if it still applies here in NZ but it used to be that anyone could get an export certificate and claim back GST ( aka VAT ) on items removed from the country.

That being the case you would need a private seller to jump the bureaucratic hoops but for a high value bass they might do it to make a sale. Then their sale price would be less their local VAT embodied in the item. You pay your local VAT at the border.

In NZ they determined that the new local value has the cost of shipping added to the sale price. Afaik we still get a free pass on anything less than $400 value.

Amazon has to charge NZ sales tax on everything as if they were a NZ entity.

As far as I know it is available here.  Provided the seller has the original sales invoice I believe its possible to claim back the VAT paid when it is permanently exported.  In theory a UK seller who has paid £1000 for a new bass can claim back the £200 VAT and sell the bass at a reduced price to a non UK buyer who then pays import duty and local VAT on the S/H price.

I'm not sure if there is a time limit but this is or whether it's specifically excluded for second hand goods, I think, the reason for the apparent "double taxation".

I'm sure Steve will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nicko]

10 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

This is certainly a situation where the result of Brexit is detrimental to people buying second hand goods from the EU or selling to people in the EU. 

I don't think it's a political statement to say that we musicians are adversely affected by the changes. 

Yes it is, but the other side of the coin is that imports of new goods to the UK will be subject to whatever arrangements are made by the UK and the exporting country, rather than the tariffs imposed by the EU.  Probably won't make any difference on instruments tbh but it might on other stuff we buy and might (or might not) balance itself out overall.

 

[HazBeen]

Bottomline, buying 2nd hand in UK from EU or in EU from UK is only interesting if you have a specific itch to be scratched. Generally it is not worth the hassle. 

[Nicko]

30 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

Bottomline, buying 2nd hand in GB from outside the GB or vice versa EU or in EU from UK is only interesting if you have a specific itch to be scratched. Generally it is not worth the hassle. 

Corrected.I'm only making the point that the arrangements are now consistent wherever you buy from.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Nicko
Changed UK to GB

[Newfoundfreedom]

30 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

Bottomline, buying 2nd hand in UK from EU or in EU from UK is only interesting if you have a specific itch to be scratched. Generally it is not worth the hassle. 

This exactly. There's a zoom recorder on the market place. I've been after one at a decent price for months. I would have already bought it if it wasn't for all this. But by the time I've added the VAT and the extra costs incurred by the shipping company, it's just not worth it. 

So the seller loses out on a sale (although I'm sure it will sell sooner or later) and I miss out on a bargain. For what?

Alright in the scheme of things not the end of the world  But anybody who thinks this isn't going to effect businesses (especially small ones) in the same way is living in cloud cuckoo land. 

[Quilly]

this is a major pain in the bum, I've some gear to sell that I would have normally sold to UK buyers.

I've bought and sold so much stuff from Britain as the chose and potential bargains are phenomenal, hopefully the customs procedures are not too laborious. 

Did Boris not think about us Basschatters ?   

[Steve Browning]

15 minutes ago, Quilly said:

I've bought and sold so much stuff from Britain as the chose and potential bargains are phenomenal, hopefully the customs procedures are not too laborious. 

 

Oh, they are!!! 😞

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Quilly said:

Did Boris not think about us Basschatters ?   

Boris and the Basschatters...now there's a thought 😁

[LukeFRC]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Boris and the Basschatters...now there's a thought 😁

First single "Honest mate it's a oven ready Sansamp pedal" coming out after much delay a few weeks later than it should have done 

[Al Krow]

11 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

First single "Honest mate it's a oven ready Sansamp pedal" coming out after much delay a few weeks later than it should have done 

In collaboration with his mate from Leicester, right? 

Although after 4.5 years what's a few weeks between friends eh - he managed to get it baked before the curtain fell...and, besides, still likely to be released sooner than the promised DG mutlifx we've been waiting for?

Edited January 4, 2021 by Al Krow

[Bunion]

Purchased a bass from @fclef4life just before Christmas and it got through the border patrols and customs officers by a hairs breadth. 
I’ve never given a bass a name but I’m thinking of Steve McQueen for this one 🤣😂 

[TorVic]

Hi All,

Following is an account of my experience buying and shipping an item from UK (Scotland) to EU (Netherlands) this week: 

(1) I bought a headphone amp from a friendly seller here for a price of 91GBP (~102EUR)

(2) I agreed with the seller to book the courier myelf to manage shipping complications. I have used UPS.com similarly for earlier purchases. I got the shipping box dimensions from the seller. The charges for insured, signed delivery in this case was 16GBP. 

So the total sale cost was 91 + 16 = 108GB (~121EUR)

(3) First change: while booking online, I had to fill in a digital customs invoice that was not required before. In this invoice, I had to fill the following details: 

"Description of Item:                                       Used second-hand bass headphone amp
Value:                                                                91 GBP
Freight charges:                                              17 GBP 
Country where it was made / assembled : China mainland* 

Total:                                                                  108 GBP"

(* The user manual mentioned China / The new retail price on the web was ~300EUR / 267GBP) 

(4) The shipment was picked up the next day and ready for delivery the day after. However, things took a new turn at this point.

(5) Second change: I received an email from UPS stating that import fees have to be paid for this shipment. The payment link showed the following details in EUR (BTW = VAT): 

"IMPORT FEES:              
 NOTE: the total value used for calculation of all Duty-based fees is 0.00.

Government Charges:    24.99
Brokerage Charges:       13.00
Freight Charges:               0.00
BTW:                                   2.73

Total:                                 40.72 EUR"  (~36GBP)

The government charge was 25 EUR (~22GBP) which is approximately 20% of the value declared in the customs invoice above. 
 
I assume the 13EUR (~11GBP) brokerage charges were for GBP to EUR currency conversion - this was a surprise to me. Not sure if all couriers charge similarly or worse. And it is not evident whether it is a fixed charge or depends on the amount - I assume it will be the latter. This together with the VAT adds a 10% charge to the sale cost.   

(6) So in the end, I paid 36GBP (~40EUR) import fees for a purchase cost of 108GBP (~120EUR). That's a ~30% additional cost on the sale (item + shipping cost). 

And that probably marks the end, for me, of any big purchases from UK on our beloved BassChat marketplace forum, for a while.

So long and thanks for all the fish!  

-Cheers, Vic. 
 

Edited January 15, 2021 by TorVic
fixed typos

[Nicko]

6 minutes ago, TorVic said:

So long and thanks for all the fish!

Oh, the irony😀

[gareth]

5 hours ago, TorVic said:

Hi All,

Following is an account of my experience buying and shipping an item from UK (Scotland) to EU (Netherlands) this week: 

(1) I bought a headphone amp from a friendly seller here for a price of 91GBP (~102EUR)

(2) I agreed with the seller to book the courier myelf to manage shipping complications. I have used UPS.com similarly for earlier purchases. I got the shipping box dimensions from the seller. The charges for insured, signed delivery in this case was 16GBP. 

So the total sale cost was 91 + 16 = 108GB (~121EUR)

(3) First change: while booking online, I had to fill in a digital customs invoice that was not required before. In this invoice, I had to fill the following details: 

"Description of Item:                                       Used second-hand bass headphone amp
Value:                                                                91 GBP
Freight charges:                                              17 GBP 
Country where it was made / assembled : China mainland* 

Total:                                                                  108 GBP"

(* The user manual mentioned China / The new retail price on the web was ~300EUR / 267GBP) 

(4) The shipment was picked up the next day and ready for delivery the day after. However, things took a new turn at this point.

(5) Second change: I received an email from UPS stating that import fees have to be paid for this shipment. The payment link showed the following details in EUR (BTW = VAT): 

"IMPORT FEES:              
 NOTE: the total value used for calculation of all Duty-based fees is 0.00.

Government Charges:    24.99
Brokerage Charges:       13.00
Freight Charges:               0.00
BTW:                                   2.73

Total:                                 40.72 EUR"  (~36GBP)

The government charge was 25 EUR (~22GBP) which is approximately 20% of the value declared in the customs invoice above. 
 
I assume the 13EUR (~11GBP) brokerage charges were for GBP to EUR currency conversion - this was a surprise to me. Not sure if all couriers charge similarly or worse. And it is not evident whether it is a fixed charge or depends on the amount - I assume it will be the latter. This together with the VAT adds a 10% charge to the sale cost.   

(6) So in the end, I paid 36GBP (~40EUR) import fees for a purchase cost of 108GBP (~120EUR). That's a ~30% additional cost on the sale (item + shipping cost). 

And that probably marks the end, for me, of any big purchases from UK on our beloved BassChat marketplace forum, for a while.

So long and thanks for all the fish!  

-Cheers, Vic. 
 

And I assume the same would apply if I were to buy an item from you and have it shipped to the uk

 I sold a bass to someone in Hungary this week but he got me to ship it to his friend here in U.K. from whom he will collect on his next visit 

I expect this will become a common practice 

Edited January 15, 2021 by gareth

[Al Krow]

13 minutes ago, gareth said:

And I assume the same would apply if I were to buy an item from you and have it shipped to the uk

 I sold a bass to someone in Hungary this week but he got me to ship it to his friend here in U.K. from whom he will collect on his next visit 

I expect this will become a common practice 

Well there is a £390 duty free allowance for items personally brought by hand into the UK.

Anything above that is subject to VAT on the full value not just the excess.

[ambient]

6 hours ago, TorVic said:

Hi All,

Following is an account of my experience buying and shipping an item from UK (Scotland) to EU (Netherlands) this week: 

(1) I bought a headphone amp from a friendly seller here for a price of 91GBP (~102EUR)

(2) I agreed with the seller to book the courier myelf to manage shipping complications. I have used UPS.com similarly for earlier purchases. I got the shipping box dimensions from the seller. The charges for insured, signed delivery in this case was 16GBP. 

So the total sale cost was 91 + 16 = 108GB (~121EUR)

(3) First change: while booking online, I had to fill in a digital customs invoice that was not required before. In this invoice, I had to fill the following details: 

"Description of Item:                                       Used second-hand bass headphone amp
Value:                                                                91 GBP
Freight charges:                                              17 GBP 
Country where it was made / assembled : China mainland* 

Total:                                                                  108 GBP"

(* The user manual mentioned China / The new retail price on the web was ~300EUR / 267GBP) 

(4) The shipment was picked up the next day and ready for delivery the day after. However, things took a new turn at this point.

(5) Second change: I received an email from UPS stating that import fees have to be paid for this shipment. The payment link showed the following details in EUR (BTW = VAT): 

"IMPORT FEES:              
 NOTE: the total value used for calculation of all Duty-based fees is 0.00.

Government Charges:    24.99
Brokerage Charges:       13.00
Freight Charges:               0.00
BTW:                                   2.73

Total:                                 40.72 EUR"  (~36GBP)

The government charge was 25 EUR (~22GBP) which is approximately 20% of the value declared in the customs invoice above. 
 
I assume the 13EUR (~11GBP) brokerage charges were for GBP to EUR currency conversion - this was a surprise to me. Not sure if all couriers charge similarly or worse. And it is not evident whether it is a fixed charge or depends on the amount - I assume it will be the latter. This together with the VAT adds a 10% charge to the sale cost.   

(6) So in the end, I paid 36GBP (~40EUR) import fees for a purchase cost of 108GBP (~120EUR). That's a ~30% additional cost on the sale (item + shipping cost). 

And that probably marks the end, for me, of any big purchases from UK on our beloved BassChat marketplace forum, for a while.

So long and thanks for all the fish!  

-Cheers, Vic. 
 

It’s the gift that just keeps giving. Still, like I said elsewhere earlier, at least the fish are happy, nobody’s bothering to catch them.

[TorVic]

I see comments on sale threads about people committing to buy from EU and then backing out when finding out about the import fees. 

Perhaps it might help to have a separate forum (like on Talkbass) 'For Sale: Europe & International' under BassChat marketplace. 

That way UK buyers would be aware that import fees will be applicable when buying from the EU.

EU buyers and sellers could continue to use their sales subscription and their long feedback history on this forum.  

[Al Krow]

15 minutes ago, TorVic said:

I see comments on sale threads about people committing to buy from EU and then backing out when finding out about the import fees. 

Perhaps it might help to have a separate forum (like on Talkbass) 'For Sale: Europe & International' under BassChat marketplace. 

That way UK buyers would be aware that import fees will be applicable when buying from the EU.

EU buyers and sellers could continue to use their sales subscription and their long feedback history on this forum.  

Hi TorVic - your suggestion makes a lot of sense and is similar to ones that myself and @Steve Browning have put to the mods together with a pinned notice about needing to be aware that VAT may apply to used goods being sold between the UK and EU (and vice versa).

Currently I don't sense that there is any appetite to do so.

[ambient]

Someone mentioned the new rules affecting businesses. Keeping it music business related, a friend shared this on Facebook earlier. 
 

This is yet another of the things that makes me incredibly sad - both for the buyers of the records, and obviously the seller/artist. For these small labels it’s all about the music, they don’t have a massive turnover - probably consider themselves lucky if an album’s sales are in double figures, so losing even a handful of sales is bad news for them. This won’t be the only person that stops buying from them for this reason.

Edited January 16, 2021 by ambient

[Dad3353]

Just a memory refresh, for the very old...

When It Was Illegal To Buy American Guitars In The UK ...

Things change, and folks adapt to those changes. Sometimes the pendulum swings one way, then, later on, swings back, or somewhere else entirely. This is a transition period. History will be written about it in another few decade's time. It's too soon to know how it'll pan out.