ambient Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steve Browning said: Yes. I'd appreciate some more clarity. Is it being stated that the EU trades on WTO terms with some countries (I'm talking pre-Brexit here)? I am genuinely interested because I haven't looked at it myself (had no need). Austalia does, that’s why the ‘Australia type deal’ that they kept talking about was disingenuous to say the least. Their trade with the EU is a tiny fraction of ours though, and doesn’t include finance or services - for the obvious reason of location. They are in the process of negotiating a trade deal with the EU though. Edited January 5, 2021 by ambient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 36 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: For goods under £135 to a non=VAT registered UK business/person then: To charge and account for VAT the seller will need to: know the precise nature of the goods to find out the correct rate of VAT to charge register for VAT - sellers that are already registered for VAT do not need to re-register keep records of the goods sold, and make sure they get accurate information to apply the correct VAT treatment to them https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-directly-to-customers-in-the-uk That doesn't sound like German VAT! And for non-Uk seller to UK VAT registered business for goods under £135: Business to business sales to UK VAT-registered customers The seller will not need to charge and account for VAT if the customer gives them their VAT registration number. The seller can confirm it’s correct using the online service. The seller can add a note to the invoice (for example, by writing ‘reverse charge: customer to account for VAT to HMRC’) then send it to the UK business customer. The business customer will then be responsible for accounting for any VAT due on their VAT Return, if the goods are supplied in: Great Britain using a ‘reverse charge’ procedure Northern Ireland, using Postponed VAT Accounting In both cases, the seller will be able to recover the VAT as input tax on the same VAT Return under normal VAT recovery rules. Sellers do not have to register for VAT if they only sell goods that are outside the UK at the point of sale to UK VAT-registered business For transactions over £135 it appears we'd need to become an importer, use an agent or pay VAT there and then. Now our European suppliers don't want the extra grief of dealing with a myriad of tax rules they never had to before, and we're a shop who already has to do enough VAT/TAX/Accounts submitting. We don't need more red tape! https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-imports-acquisitions-and-purchases-from-abroad https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/948978/December_BordersOPModel_Medium.pdf Pages 19 and 33 refer. It was updated this morning. Page 33 states - "With regards to VAT on imports of goods in consignments not exceeding £135 (excluding Excise and consumer to consumer consignments), we will be moving the point at which VAT is collected from the point of importation to the point of sale. This will mean that UK supply VAT, rather than import VAT, will be due on these consignments and therefore accounted for via the VAT return." This seems a little contradictory because the point of sale for Thomann must be Germany. I think we need to be careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Ultimately, the conclusion is that private individuals buying 2nd hand gear from other private individuals (in a different country) will now pay VAT when they didn't before. Businesses can sort themselves out and take their own advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 7 minutes ago, Steve Browning said: I think we need to be careful. I imagine a lot of businesses will be kicking off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Steve Browning said: Ultimately, the conclusion is that private individuals buying 2nd hand gear from other private individuals (in a different country) will now pay VAT when they didn't before. Businesses can sort themselves out and take their own advice. even if under £135? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Just now, LukeFRC said: I imagine a lot of businesses will be kicking off. Indeed. I've just been on a call regarding a contract (with the UK) to supply expensive goods, produced in Portugal and delivered to France.; No longer possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, Al Krow said: The irony of your example is that China trades with the EU on WTO terms i.e. with customs barriers and taxes which importers in the EU and exporters in China (and vice versa - as you rightly say they will need to have stuff to take back to make the several thousand mile trip worth while) have totally got their heads around. But EU trading with the UK with ZERO tariffs on goods over much shorter distances is going to be a massive issue? Nah, I don't buy that line of argument at all. You do realise the UK already does more trade with rest of the world than it does with the EU and often on basic WTO terms? Those businesses involved in import / export have all managed to get their heads around the relevant Customs forms. I think you are massively underestimating the ability of businesses to learn and adapt. And if they don't, others happily will. It's going to be just fine. EU & China have recently announced a trade a trade deal. If WTO is so great, why did they bother? UK international trade Everything you might want to know about the UK's trade with the EU - Full Fact But it's wrong to say that all non-EU trade was done on WTO terms. Through the EU we had over 140 international trade agreements. Most trade was done through these. As a past leader of the WTO has said; UK has chosen to go from Premier League to 4th Division. As far a Thomann is concerned - If Thomann can't get a carrier to take your Yamaha bass from Germany to UK, then your changing to a Ibanez or Fender still leaves them with the same problem to get it to you. Germany can still get them. It's UK that has chosen to go to 4th Division. Edited January 5, 2021 by Grangur 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Steve Browning said: Indeed. I've just been on a call regarding a contract (with the UK) to supply expensive goods, produced in Portugal and delivered to France.; No longer possible. So business owners like @Leonard Smalls other half... should start making a lot of noise to their MPs. Ultimately our access to secondhand basses in France is fairly unimportant compared to small and medium businesses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Just now, LukeFRC said: So business owners like @Leonard Smalls other half... should start making a lot of noise to their MPs. Ultimately our access to secondhand basses in France is fairly unimportant compared to small and medium businesses That is handy if your MP is someone who cares about their constituants. Mine has litterally said he doesn't, he is not interested in people who haven't voted for him, and as a member of ERG, he not only won't listen to anything which could be taken as a critisism of brexit. In addition to that, he is actually rather thick. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 UK businesses no longer have access to the concept of triangulation. In the example I gave above, our UK business would have to register for VAT in Portugal or the contract be novated to the Spanish company so they can use triangulation. If the business is UK based then they have to be aware of their supply chain. certain things are no longer possible in the same way. A lot depends on whether the UK business is VAT registered or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Smalls Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 48 minutes ago, Woodinblack said: That is handy if your MP is someone who cares about their constituents. Indeed... I've written to my MP a number of times; every time he's just replied with a direct quote of government policy and absolutely no attempt to address any points raised or to engage. And he's got a huge majority! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said: Indeed... I've written to my MP a number of times; every time he's just replied with a direct quote of government policy and absolutely no attempt to address any points raised or to engage. And he's got a huge majority! It’s like where I live, people there would vote for a donkey as long as it was wearing a blue rosette - come to think of it, they did 😆. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 All this about trading with the rest of the world, has anybody mentioned the environmental cost of this yet? Surely we need to be reducing our carbon footprint, not increasing it by buying or selling stuff to a country that’s about as far away from us as it’s possible to get? Especially if that’s just down to ideology, and nostalgia for a time when we roamed the world trading and pillaging. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grangur Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Woodinblack said: That is handy if your MP is someone who cares about their constituants. Mine has litterally said he doesn't, he is not interested in people who haven't voted for him, and as a member of ERG, he not only won't listen to anything which could be taken as a critisism of brexit. In addition to that, he is actually rather thick. Exactly! My MP is parachuted in from another part of the country, and simply votes on party lines. No interest in constituents at all. And she's a new MP; replacing another MP who was exactly the same! Democracy!?! It's a dictatorship by another name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundfreedom Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Steve Browning said: Ultimately, the conclusion is that private individuals buying 2nd hand gear from other private individuals (in a different country) will now pay VAT when they didn't before. Yup. The gift that keeps on giving. Cheers. 👌 Edited January 5, 2021 by Newfoundfreedom 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) Just been talking to my contractor on a scheme that I am running. He tells me that the system used by the HMRC for checking VAT registrations on imports into the UK is licensed from France and as such, can no longer be used...! Everything now has to be checked manually, which is adding to delays. Global Britain, eh... Edited January 5, 2021 by peteb 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, peteb said: Just been talking to my contractor on a scheme that I am running. He tells me that the system used by the HMRC for checking VAT registrations on imports into the UK is licensed from France and as such, can no longer be used under the new arrangement with the EU...! Everything now has to be checked manually, which is adding to delays. Global Britain, eh... Not quite. But one of the main issues is that there has no time to code a system to prepare for EU exit and for all interconnecting EU services to to integrate with the CDS system (Customs Declaration Service). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewblack Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 18 hours ago, Maude said: If Thomann stop selling to the UK, the next largest stockist of Harley Benton is ' @stewblacks Bass Emporium', so all is not lost. Hands off 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: Not quite. But one of the main issues is that there has no time to code a system to prepare for EU exit and for all interconnecting EU services to to integrate with the CDS system (Customs Declaration Service). I did amend my post as I am not quite sure of the reasons, only that we can no longer use a French system that we relied on for checking VAT registrations on imports. Apparently, there is also likely to be a shortage of scaffolding bolts in the UK soon. These are made in a factory in North Africa and shipped to a warehouse in the EU, who are not shipping to the UK because of the VAT issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 The system used for checking VAT numbers - https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/ - requires the 'checker' to enter a valid VAT number. The UK VAT numbers are no lo0nger valid EU VAT numbers (although NI ones are). At least it's all straightforward now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 minute ago, peteb said: I did amend my post as I am not quite sure of the reasons, only that we can no longer use a French system that we relied on for checking VAT registrations on imports. Apparently, there is also likely to be a shortage of scaffolding bolts in the UK soon. These are made in a factory in North Africa and shipped to a warehouse in the EU, who are not shipping to the UK because of the VAT issues. Blimey. A lack of erections too!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Browning Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Use this if you need to check a number - https://vat-search.co.uk/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewblack Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I can't face wading through all of the above so apologies if this has already been mentioned. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, stewblack said: I can't face wading through all of the above so apologies if this has already been mentioned. In the link in page 1. But yeah, that’s one of the changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said: Have we actually gained anything at all, or is it just about a small section of or society now having the illusion of Empire Rebirth? Big and valid question. You'll need to revisit the previous debate and arguments as to the pros and cons - I think they've been mentioned once or twice before, so I won't recap! (Other than encouraging folk to read the excellent article I previously flagged). Btw small section = 52%, most of whom don't buy fancy bike gear or boutique basses, but have had to fork out £350 per household** each year for the past 48 years for the privelege of EEC membership which was originally voted for (and subsequent EU membership which was not). They decided the cons outweighed the pros. For the other 48% their view was the opposite. Time is going to tell who got it right. **on an approximate inflation adjusted basis, and taking account of EU rebates. Edited January 5, 2021 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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