Thomann prices?

[Eldon Tyrell]

Sorry if this has already been answered here or somewhere else: I am interested in a bass that Thomann is selling and that is not available here in the UK. I can see that they have reduced their prices (taken out VAT, I guess the German one) as we now have to pay our 20% VAT here. I know that I also have to pay custom duty. How much is that? Is there a table that shows the exact amount? Is the handling fee the same for all couriers? Would be nice to know before I order how much I actually end up paying. Thanks in advance and Happy New Year!

[EBS_freak]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Come on, that's bordering on plain silly. 

We already trade more with non EU nations than with the EU. There are plenty of small retailers who are geared up to import from outside the UK eg Mark at Bass Direct will happily source you a 3 Leaf pedal or a Mesa amp. 

He's hardly a "large corporation"! 

Yes, I'm sure there will be an initial learning curve, but if we can learn a new song we can surely cope with a new form to fill out which is pretty much the same as what you do for a courier. YMMV

You do know that the trade deals were formed based on deals with the EU, of which the UK was a member...? No?

Edited January 2, 2021 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

You do know that the trade deals were formed based on deals with the EU, of which the UK was a member...? No?

Yup, thanks I'd spotted that 😁

Trade deals are definitely a good thing, no question. It's win win. 

Alongside the UK do you know who the EU's largest trading partner is? 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Al Krow
Answer: USA. No trade deal. It's not the end of the world.

[Dad3353]

55 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Click here to see why nobody will want to be bothered getting involved with dealing with the UK - due to the overheads of the vendors having to do somebody else's job in collecting tax on behalf of the UK

I noted this paragraph; does this exclude private sales from this malarkey..?

...
The changes will not apply to consignments of goods containing excise goods or to non- commercial transactions between private individuals. Existing rules will continue to apply for these transactions.
...

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Yup, thanks I'd spotted that 😁

Trade deals are definitely a good thing, no question. It's win win. 

Alongside the UK do you know who the EU's largest trading partner is? 

Of course it’s not the end of the world. But it’s a hell of a worse situation to be in.

Thats like saying, after needlessly losing all your limbs, “hey could have been worse,  could be dead”

[Eldon Tyrell]

4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

I noted this paragraph; does this exclude private sales from this malarkey..?

The changes will not apply to consignments of goods containing excise goods or to non- commercial transactions between private individuals. Existing rules will continue to apply for these transactions.

 

Private sales are commercial activities (goods and money change hands). Non-commercial transactions do not involve financial transactions  (e.g., gifts). So, if you want to give your bass away for free, then please let me know 😉  

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Of course it’s not the end of the world. But it’s a hell of a worse situation to be in.

Thats like saying, after needlessly losing all your limbs, “hey could have been worse,  could be dead”

Indeed - having spent the morning looking into what we do for my wifes webshop, import and export, for the moment we have accepted that we will just stop all selling to the EU until it is clearer and take the 20% loss to her business. She hasn't got the time to deal with the extra paperwork, its a lot easier if you have staff to deal with it. 

Sunlit f'ing uplands. 

[Maude]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

Indeed - having spent the morning looking into what we do for my wifes webshop, import and export, for the moment we have accepted that we will just stop all selling to the EU until it is clearer and take the 20% loss to her business. She hasn't got the time to deal with the extra paperwork, its a lot easier if you have staff to deal with it. 

Sunlit f'ing uplands. 

I'm a little confused, and I'm quoting your post but it's not just related to your wife's business. 

A few people have said business won't be bothered /don't have the time for all the extra paperwork involved in the new way of collecting VAT. Yet others are saying the handling fee the couriers will be charging is a payment for them handling the VAT collection. 

If the couriers are handling the VAT collection, don't businesses just sell the goods and move on with no extra hassle? 

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, Maude said:

I'm a little confused, and I'm quoting your post but it's not just related to your wife's business. 

A few people have said business won't be bothered /don't have the time for all the extra paperwork involved in the new way of collecting VAT. Yet others are saying the handling fee the couriers will be charging is a payment for them handling the VAT collection. 

Vat is the smallest of issues in my wifes business, that is just an additional cost. No, the problems are that she is a small one woman shop that sells around 500 products, some handmade, some bought from suppliers (pet supply stuff). When sending to the EU now, each of those products needs an ID for customs, which is ok if it comes from a large supplier but obviously not if it is handmade. When she sends something to europe she has to do a declaration with all of those product IDs. Which she doesn't have and cant get. obviously she can pay for these ids, but the products have a value all probably less than a tenner and the IDS is a lot of work and cost for each one.

At least that is what we think. There is no government page on it that doesn't have a contradicting government page on it. In conversations with her suppliers, they don't really know. There are a few suppliers in Europe who are just not even going to bother sending to the UK as it is too complicated

Then she needs an ID to have permission to even send the stuff. Then there is the cost of sending stuff which is going to go up massively, to the point where the cost of the shipping will be far in excess of the costs of the items.

Basically, for a business like hers, this has removed Europe as a market, there is no way to be competitive with a business that is already there. 

For those that say 'oh this is just like dealing with the rest of the world; - no, it isn't even close. The closest thing is dealing with some of the non EU european states, which was always a lot of hassle (but quite low issues), where you have to know the individual rules and quirks of dealing with it, such as norway. USA / Australia etc - nothing like the hassle dealing with them. 

Basically I can't see that if you had introduced a law banning small companies from dealing with europe it would have done any more damage to the country. 

[EBS_freak]

15 minutes ago, Maude said:

 

If the couriers are handling the VAT collection, don't businesses just sell the goods and move on with no extra hassle? 

No - they (the businesses) have to collect the tax up front.

Edited January 2, 2021 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

Here's an example from a small independent, based in Australia that ships clothing worldwide.

CHANGES TO UK VAT CHARGES FROM 1 JANUARY 2021

From 1 January 2021, the UK Government will require VAT to be paid upfront for any parcels £135 or less coming into the United Kingdom. Unfortunately, this means that we will need to charge UK customers the VAT on all orders with the value of £135 or less before we are able to ship them.

Please note: The £135 threshold is calculated on the product cost only. However VAT is charged on the full order amount which includes the shipping costs calculated at checkout.

We are working as quickly as possible on an automatic solution at checkout, however, in the meantime, we will manually send any customers with a UK shipping address who place an order for an amount of £135 or less an additional invoice for the VAT via email, which will need to be paid within 7 days of placing your order. Once this invoice has been paid, our Warehouse team will continue to ship your order as per usual.

This change will affect orders placed in our system from 12.00am (AEST) 1 January 2021. If your order is placed before this time, you will not be required to prepay VAT even if your order is not shipped until after 1 January 2021.

All orders are charged in $AU. The UK Government requirement for pre-paid VAT is only mandatory for parcels with a value of £135 or less. Parcels with a value above £135 will still be liable for VAT and may be liable for additional customs charges (duties) after their parcel arrives.

 

So - there is currently a manual overhead on each order to the UK... every order coming in has to be checked to see if it's bound for the UK. The item(s) is/are picked and then held. Then, an invoice has to be manually raised for the extra payment. Then the payment has to be tracked manually before the item can be shipped. The invoice may never be paid and the whole transaction has to be backed out and the items returned to the inventory. If payment is received, the good can be shipped out. From an accountancy point of view, all the UK transactions have to be taken in isolation because the money that is collected into the bank account is HMRC's, not the company - and hence has to be dealt with manually by the accountant.

Now imagine if every country demanded a "right to trade with us tax" like the UK. Most companies would be under in weeks, unable to keep up with the paper work and tracking the finances.

Of course, all this needs could be fixed with software - but that is an additional tax. And it's not the business that has changed anything - but will be brunting the cost of the "privilege" of dealing with the UK. In short, a lot of businesses - and I'm talking mainly about the small businesses here -  just won't bother. Again, the big corporates will just absorb it and continue to get bigger and bigger.

 

[Maude]

15 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Vat is the smallest of issues in my wifes business, that is just an additional cost. No, the problems are that she is a small one woman shop that sells around 500 products, some handmade, some bought from suppliers (pet supply stuff). When sending to the EU now, each of those products needs an ID for customs, which is ok if it comes from a large supplier but obviously not if it is handmade. When she sends something to europe she has to do a declaration with all of those product IDs. Which she doesn't have and cant get. obviously she can pay for these ids, but the products have a value all probably less than a tenner and the IDS is a lot of work and cost for each one.

At least that is what we think. There is no government page on it that doesn't have a contradicting government page on it. In conversations with her suppliers, they don't really know. There are a few suppliers in Europe who are just not even going to bother sending to the UK as it is too complicated

Then she needs an ID to have permission to even send the stuff. Then there is the cost of sending stuff which is going to go up massively, to the point where the cost of the shipping will be far in excess of the costs of the items.

Basically, for a business like hers, this has removed Europe as a market, there is no way to be competitive with a business that is already there. 

For those that say 'oh this is just like dealing with the rest of the world; - no, it isn't even close. The closest thing is dealing with some of the non EU european states, which was always a lot of hassle (but quite low issues), where you have to know the individual rules and quirks of dealing with it, such as norway. USA / Australia etc - nothing like the hassle dealing with them. 

Basically I can't see that if you had introduced a law banning small companies from dealing with europe it would have done any more damage to the country. 

Thanks for the explanation. As someone who's never had to deal with any of that it's all stuff I was unaware of, I can see why it's probably just not worth it. But being an annoyingly 'glass half full' type, if we have effectively made trading with the EU a no go for businesses like yours, and vice versa, then hopefully your UK sales might pick up a bit and fill the gap a little. Obviously the UK isn't as big as the EU though. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Maude

[EBS_freak]

10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Vat is the smallest of issues in my wifes business, that is just an additional cost. No, the problems are that she is a small one woman shop that sells around 500 products, some handmade, some bought from suppliers (pet supply stuff). When sending to the EU now, each of those products needs an ID for customs, which is ok if it comes from a large supplier but obviously not if it is handmade. When she sends something to europe she has to do a declaration with all of those product IDs. Which she doesn't have and cant get. obviously she can pay for these ids, but the products have a value all probably less than a tenner and the IDS is a lot of work and cost for each one.

At least that is what we think. There is no government page on it that doesn't have a contradicting government page on it. In conversations with her suppliers, they don't really know. There are a few suppliers in Europe who are just not even going to bother sending to the UK as it is too complicated

Then she needs an ID to have permission to even send the stuff. Then there is the cost of sending stuff which is going to go up massively, to the point where the cost of the shipping will be far in excess of the costs of the items.

Basically, for a business like hers, this has removed Europe as a market, there is no way to be competitive with a business that is already there. 

For those that say 'oh this is just like dealing with the rest of the world; - no, it isn't even close. The closest thing is dealing with some of the non EU european states, which was always a lot of hassle (but quite low issues), where you have to know the individual rules and quirks of dealing with it, such as norway. USA / Australia etc - nothing like the hassle dealing with them. 

Basically I can't see that if you had introduced a law banning small companies from dealing with europe it would have done any more damage to the country. 

You got it.

Feels good, don't it?

[Dad3353]

9 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

No - they (the businesses) have to collect the tax up front.

So do Thomann charge UK customers for UK VAT or not..? 

[stewblack]

I know we mustn't talk politics, with that mind here are my views on the matter

[Bunion]

11 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Basically, for a business like hers, this has removed Europe as a market, there is no way to be competitive with a business that is already there. 

Maybe she will pick up the uk buyers who go to the EU market as the sellers there will have the same problem going the other way. 
The void created by the confusion will certainly need to be filled. 
 

[Maude]

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

No - they (the businesses) have to collect the tax up front.

 

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

So do Thomann charge UK customers for UK VAT or not..? 

And if so are the folks saying the couriers handling fee is to handle the VAT collection on your (the buyers) behalf wrong?

I guess the definitive answer for someone like me is time will tell, but that's no help to small business owners. 

[Dad3353]

41 minutes ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

Private sales are commercial activities (goods and money change hands). Non-commercial transactions do not involve financial transactions  (e.g., gifts). So, if you want to give your bass away for free, then please let me know 😉  

Is that absolutely certain..? I've bought, privately, RC 'plane kits from the USA, from individuals. I had to pay import duty (into France...), but no VAT. There were no invoices or such, simply the customs declaration given to the US postal services. Individuals are not VAT registered, either as sellers or buyers; how would The System deal with that..?

[Woodinblack]

9 minutes ago, Bunion said:

Maybe she will pick up the uk buyers who go to the EU market as the sellers there will have the same problem going the other way. 
 

Sadly not - her main competitor (who rips off all her stuff) is in the Netherlands but has a UK supplier too.

Edited January 2, 2021 by Woodinblack

[Jack]

I just put an order in on the 23rd, when I spoke to somebody a few days before that they said that they would be listing prices without VAT. They also said that the UK was one of their biggest customer bases and that they would endeavor to continue to do business with us. There are no extra charges due to HMRC, so no import duties or anything, only the VAT.

 

It was a little embarrassing to have that conversation to be honest, I had to say about 15 times that I didn't want any of this. 

[Eldon Tyrell]

2 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Is that absolutely certain..? I've bought, privately, RC 'plane kits from the USA, from individuals. I had to pay import duty (into France...), but no VAT. There were no invoices or such, simply the customs declaration given to the US postal services. Individuals are not VAT registered, either as sellers or buyers; how would The System deal with that..?

No idea, I was only referring to your quote and saying that private sales are not non-commercial transactions as money is involved. Non-commercial transactions between private individuals (as in your quote) are referring to gift-giving. 

 

[Woodinblack]

3 minutes ago, Jack said:

It was a little embarrassing to have that conversation to be honest, I had to say about 15 times that I didn't want any of this. 

Listening to my wifes conversations to European customers and suppliers, they are all pretty much the same, an overwhelming sense of embarrassment that our country has done this.

[Eldon Tyrell]

To bring it all back to Thomann: Maybe one positive outcome will be that Thomann will have to lower their prices to undercut local competitors (Andertons, PMT, GG, Gear4music etc.). Ordering from the EU is obviously becoming a hassle and only by having much better prices (after adding VAT, customs and handling fee), customers may still decide to order from them. Well, that's my hope at least 😉

[Bunion]

I think this is the confusion. 
 

private  sales by individuals will not charge or deduct VAT this will be worked out by border control based on the value of the item sold and declared on the paperwork provided. This is usually collected by the courier or postal service delivering the item which will be held for a set period of time until you pay the costs + their handling charge for dealing with it. 
if you don’t pay the item is returned sender. 
 

Commercial new sales will be charged at source. 
 

 

 

[Doctor J]

4 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

Is that absolutely certain..? I've bought, privately, RC 'plane kits from the USA, from individuals. I had to pay import duty (into France...), but no VAT. There were no invoices or such, simply the customs declaration given to the US postal services. Individuals are not VAT registered, either as sellers or buyers; how would The System deal with that..?

I've bought basses from the US and Japan over the years from private sellers. When they arrived, I paid Import Duty and VAT on the value of the goods plus the cost of postage. It was all presented to me as one lump sum due, but usually worked out at roughly an additional 25%. There are different thresholds at play, depending on the item being imported, where you might come in under a taxable value but still liable for Import Duty.