A post brexit question.

[BaggyMan]

ok calm down, its not a right /wrongs about BREXIt post..

So,  have seen folks on the EU side of things selling stuff, what exactly has changed?

Seen a bunch of comments and cost of shipping a bass to say..France

were:

Cost of shipping + insurance.

Now

Cost of shipping + (20% VAT on shipping cost) + insurance

plus buyer pays import on it?

And in reverse

before:

Cost of shipping +insurance no surcharges

Now

Cost of shipping +20% +import duties??

Is that correct??  does anyone have any real facts on it (as opposed to general opinions)

If that is correct a £500 bass turn into probably about £100 or so more with additional vat and import duties?

[Steve Browning]

If you sell a bass to someone in France you charge them as normal. When you send it you fill out a Customs form and the French tax authority charge your customer French VAT on the import. The value base is the cost + carrier cost. You won't see any of those additional costs.

[geoham]

You'll notice now that Thomann are selling items without UK VAT. VAT of course is still payable.

What will happen is that it'll be held at customs, your courier will likely pay the VAT, along with import duty (around 3% I believe), then deliver your parcel. They'll bill you for VAT, duty and most likley a handling charge for their service.

Realistically, the VAT will remain the same, but the import duty and courier handling charge are new. A £500 bass would probably be £25 more expensive in total. (Approx £15 duty at 3%, plus a guessed £10 handling fee)

George

[BaggyMan]

Interesting, 

So effectively Uk  VAT and import duty may now be a separate component, and possibly incur courier handling fees and I am guessing the same the applies for the EU countries.  I guess we'll properly know when someone completes a transaction.

[Steve Browning]

There is no UK VAT at all.

Your French customer sees those charges, you will never see them.

[BaggyMan]

Just trying to see where the additional costs land, and getting a feel for what to say should a EU based buyer might expect, or alternatively what I might expect on top of a EU based purchase.

[Steve Browning]

You sell as normal to the EU. The customer has to p-ay their local VAT.

When you buy from the EU you are not charged their VAT but you will pay (to the carrier) UK VAT on the cost of the goods + the delivery charge.

[Steve Browning]

Are you VAT registered in the UK?

[Eldon Tyrell]

26 minutes ago, geoham said:

You'll notice now that Thomann are selling items without UK VAT. VAT of course is still payable.

What will happen is that it'll be held at customs, your courier will likely pay the VAT, along with import duty (around 3% I believe), then deliver your parcel. They'll bill you for VAT, duty and most likley a handling charge for their service.

Realistically, the VAT will remain the same, but the import duty and courier handling charge are new. A £500 bass would probably be £25 more expensive in total. (Approx £15 duty at 3%, plus a guessed £10 handling fee)

George

I think you only need to pay VAT (and handling fee) for purchases from Thomann. No import duty. 

[EBS_freak]

34 minutes ago, geoham said:

You'll notice now that Thomann are selling items without UK VAT. VAT of course is still payable.

What will happen is that it'll be held at customs, your courier will likely pay the VAT, along with import duty (around 3% I believe), then deliver your parcel. They'll bill you for VAT, duty and most likley a handling charge for their service.

Realistically, the VAT will remain the same, but the import duty and courier handling charge are new. A £500 bass would probably be £25 more expensive in total. (Approx £15 duty at 3%, plus a guessed £10 handling fee)

George

Are you sure about that? It's not as straightforward as that

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

Edited January 4, 2021 by EBS_freak

[Hellzero]

Buy by Music Store as they anticipated this situation a while ago and have "bought" DV247 which is their legal U.K. branch. This way, you'll be buying in the U.K. without the hassle...

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/history-of-dv247

[Leonard Smalls]

Indeed!

For goods sent from overseas and sold directly to UK consumers without OMP involvement, the overseas seller will be required to register and account for the VAT to HMRC.

In other words, non-online marketplace sellers (eg Thomann, or Jerzy Droyd, or that little boutique guitar seller you used to use in Aachen) have to register for UK VAT and charge that VAT on any sales to UK buyers, In other words, if a shop wants to trade with Britain it needs to go through all the rigmarole of submitting a VAT return to HMRC every 3 months... That's why our garden centre no longer trades with 3 of our Lovely Little Things suppliers in Europe - they didn't want the extra grief! 

[Al Krow]

23 minutes ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

I think you only need to pay VAT (and handling fee) for purchases from Thomann. No import duty. 

+1 ^^

That's one of the key things that the free trade agreement between the EU & UK has delivered.

And the VAT on new goods is the same as before.

So the likely difference is the £12 [?] handling fee.

3 minutes ago, Hellzero said:

Buy by Music Store as they anticipated this situation a while ago and have "bought" DV247 which is their legal U.K. branch. This way, you'll be buying in the U.K. without the hassle...

https://www.dv247.com/en_GB/GBP/history-of-dv247

Yup and it was also the other way around historically - I bought something from DV247 online a while back (they have a very decent physical store in Romford too btw) and the order was fulfilled by Music Store De. with whom my legal agreement was with.

[ambient]

Buying or selling a used item of gear is pretty much unchanged for the seller - though there will be paperwork including a customs declaration. If you compete it wrong then the item might get held up. Don’t allow yourself to be talked into under-declaring the value, you’ll run into problems with the insurance should anything get lost or damaged. It’s also against the law.

If you’re a buyer then there’s a big change. You or they will be liable for VAT. This is dealt with by the courier who will charge you for doing it. The charges vary, so it’s best to shop around.

I checked on the government website last week and duty wasn’t payable on instruments - that’s not to say it isn’t on other items. You obtain a code from the government website, that has to be printed on the customs declaration, that’s used to decide whether a duty charge is applicable.

Edited January 4, 2021 by ambient

[Mikey D]

3 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Indeed!

For goods sent from overseas and sold directly to UK consumers without OMP involvement, the overseas seller will be required to register and account for the VAT to HMRC.

In other words, non-online marketplace sellers (eg Thomann, or Jerzy Droyd, or that little boutique guitar seller you used to use in Aachen) have to register for UK VAT and charge that VAT on any sales to UK buyers, In other words, if a shop wants to trade with Britain it needs to go through all the rigmarole of submitting a VAT return to HMRC every 3 months... That's why our garden centre no longer trades with 3 of our Lovely Little Things suppliers in Europe - they didn't want the extra grief! 

This would suggest buying a bass from Thomann means for me as the buyer nothing has changed and THEY need to pay the VAT? If so, what are the chances of being able to buy something now which has the VAT removed (potentially incorrectly going by that guidance) and receiving the bass but then needing to pay the courier VAT which technically you shouldn't need to.

[EBS_freak]

3 minutes ago, ambient said:

I checked on the government website last week and duty wasn’t payable on instruments - that’s not to say it isn’t on other items. You obtain a code from the government website, that has to be printed on the customs declaration, that’s used to decide whether a duty charge is applicable.

Where's that? I'll be very surprised if musical instruments are not included...?

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Mikey D said:

This would suggest buying a bass from Thomann means for me as the buyer nothing has changed and THEY need to pay the VAT? If so, what are the chances of being able to buy something now which has the VAT removed (potentially incorrectly going by that guidance) and receiving the bass but then needing to pay the courier VAT which technically you shouldn't need to.

It won't (or shouldn't) get through customs as the paperwork will show the tax hasn't been paid correctly.

[Mikey D]

2 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

 (or shouldn't) 

[ped]

The worst thing about it is the delays it'll cause - every time I've imported something from Japan or the USA it's taken them about a week to send me the letter to pay the duty. That's time I could be slapping. Quite happy to pay extra tbh for the time being, until who knows what deals will happen now that pragmatism can take over from the politics.

[Steve Browning]

13 minutes ago, Leonard Smalls said:

Indeed!

For goods sent from overseas and sold directly to UK consumers without OMP involvement, the overseas seller will be required to register and account for the VAT to HMRC.

In other words, non-online marketplace sellers (eg Thomann, or Jerzy Droyd, or that little boutique guitar seller you used to use in Aachen) have to register for UK VAT and charge that VAT on any sales to UK buyers, In other words, if a shop wants to trade with Britain it needs to go through all the rigmarole of submitting a VAT return to HMRC every 3 months... That's why our garden centre no longer trades with 3 of our Lovely Little Things suppliers in Europe - they didn't want the extra grief! 

I believe you are referring to distance selling which is an EU concept. I am not sure that applies to the UK any more. What is the date of your link (I clicked on it and got nowhere).

[Steve Browning]

1 minute ago, Steve Browning said:

I believe you are referring to distance selling which is an EU concept. I am not sure that applies to the UK any more. What is the date of your link (I clicked on it and got nowhere).

I note a lot of links to HMRC are now dead. I would guess an update is coming.

[ambient]

10 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Where's that? I'll be very surprised if musical instruments are not included...?

I’m wrong, I apologise. There’s 2% duty on them too. I’ll amend my post.

[geoham]

29 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Are you sure about that? It's not as straightforward as that

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021

I'm absolutely not sure of anything... an interesting read.

The points about VAT being charged at the point of sale for goods under £135 is massive and should prevent delays and handling fees on these. However, based on my quick read of this, I think what I described will still be applicable for goods exceeding £135. 

It'll be interesting to see how the likes of Thomann deal with this, since the £135 is per consignment - so a £120 bass shipped alone would require them to charge UK VAT, but add on a £20 of strings to the same order and VAT will instead be charged upon import.

I think I'll be buying locally to avoid problems, and I suspect this may be their intention.

George

[ambient]

12 minutes ago, Mikey D said:

This would suggest buying a bass from Thomann means for me as the buyer nothing has changed and THEY need to pay the VAT? If so, what are the chances of being able to buy something now which has the VAT removed (potentially incorrectly going by that guidance) and receiving the bass but then needing to pay the courier VAT which technically you shouldn't need to.

No, the courier will pay the VAT for you, then claim it back from you along with a handling charge. They’ll then release your item and deliver it to you.

[Leonard Smalls]

3 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

I believe you are referring to distance selling which is an EU concept.

It's not a link, just a quote from this:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021/changes-to-vat-treatment-of-overseas-goods-sold-to-customers-from-1-january-2021