Visa free touring in EU.

[Marvin]

19 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

I’m a tad unsure on this re musicians being able to play within the constraints, where the UK wanted a 30 day limit, the EU 90 days. Would any of us on here have found the 30 day limit to be unworkable for their bands. 

One of my favourite UK bands that tour/gig almost constantly and would tour Europe maybe 3 or 4 times a year (festivals and gigs). So for them any limit blows a massive hole in their touring schedule. I'm not even sure the band may be viable, as gigging is their main income. And I doubt that if they decided that gigging in Europe was too expensive and problematic that the number of dates they do in Europe could be offset with dates in the UK. There are only so many times you can play the same venues in a year.

At one point they were doing over +250 shows a year and probably a quarter to a third would be in Europe.

[BassBunny]

Here's an overview of the current situation.

https://www.ism.org/advice/eu-work-permit-requirements-for-musicians

[Leonard Smalls]

18 minutes ago, BassBunny said:

Here's an overview

It's quite ironic that many of those countries that are currently under the EU's shackles have quite different requirements... It's almost as if they have actual control of their borders!

[Lozz196]

I think my point/question has been missed, so maybe it needs to be more blunt:

Are any of us on here directly affected by this in our bands? 

Theres no hidden agenda here, I’m just interested to see if any of us on here would have been ok with the 90 but that the 30 would make things difficult.

For what it’s worth this new ruling will make things more difficult for my old band, as we only ever did 5 or 6 day mini-tours, however knowing them they will find a way to work with the new constraints.

[ambient]

It’s not just musicians of course. There’s quite a few other arts related occupations affected too - DJs for example.

[ambient]

Just now, Lozz196 said:

I think my point/question has been missed, so maybe it needs to be more blunt:

Are any of us on here directly affected by this in our bands? 

Theres no hidden agenda here, I’m just interested to see if any of us on here would have been ok with the 90 but that the 30 would make things difficult.

For what it’s worth this new ruling will make things more difficult for my old band, as we only ever did 5 or 6 day mini-tours, however knowing them they will find a way to work with the new constraints.

Yes me, though as a solo performer and academically.

[BigRedX]

Yes.

Not sure exactly what will happen but one of my band's EU tour (supporting someone fairly well-known) which was postponed from last year due to Covid is now looking fairly uncertain.

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

I think my point/question has been missed, so maybe it needs to be more blunt:

Are any of us on here directly affected by this in our bands? 

Theres no hidden agenda here, I’m just interested to see if any of us on here would have been ok with the 90 but that the 30 would make things difficult.

For what it’s worth this new ruling will make things more difficult for my old band, as we only ever did 5 or 6 day mini-tours, however knowing them they will find a way to work with the new constraints.

Yes. Me. In 2019 I went over to the EU for short tours about 8 times.

I may have to fall back on playing in a tribute band or two, or even (if I get really desperate) panto. 😉 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Steve Browning

[chris_b]

9 minutes ago, Steve Browning said:

Yes. Me. In 2019 I went over to the EU for short tours about 8 times.

I may have to fall back on playing in a tribute band or two, or even (if I get really desperate) panto. 😉 

Oh no you won't.

[meterman]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

I think my point/question has been missed, so maybe it needs to be more blunt:

Are any of us on here directly affected by this in our bands? 

 

Yes, I am. Both as a session musician, a featured artist, and as a DJ. Possibly as backline tech as well. Last year I would have spent around 10-12 weeks in total working in the EU. It probably would have been the best pay I would have seen in 2020 if not for Covid.

This year is too uncertain for me to call, as there’s still Covid to factor in. But I made the move to France last Autumn just to be on the safe side, and I’m gonna do as much as I can from here. There’s still a chance that I might not get residency here but I’m actively doing everything I can to look out for myself right now. The UK government is doing nothing to make a difficult situation any easier. Quite the reverse. 
Just reading that the leader of the opposition has come out in support of ending freedom of movement, and it’s not filling me with hope and uplifting sunlands-ness. 
I fully understand I might be in the minority on here, but c’est la vie and all that. I’m certainly not out to Fosters on anyone’s chips or anything. But yeah, it’s not a great situation. Even if you think, “it doesn’t affect me” you just never know. If you’re in a functions band or play on the cruise ships, or ever dep for other musicians who work further afield than you usually do... you just never know.

[ambient]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/10/musicians-hit-out-after-report-uk-rejected-visa-free-eu-travel

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

I think my point/question has been missed, so maybe it needs to be more blunt:

Are any of us on here directly affected by this in our bands? 

Theres no hidden agenda here, I’m just interested to see if any of us on here would have been ok with the 90 but that the 30 would make things difficult.

For what it’s worth this new ruling will make things more difficult for my old band, as we only ever did 5 or 6 day mini-tours, however knowing them they will find a way to work with the new constraints.

I am currently in two bands that each have a deal with a German record company to sell an album in Northern Europe / Italy (one a licensing deal, another a distribution deal). The only reason either of these bands exist is to sell very specific genre CDs to an existing market in Germany, Sweden and Italy. In previous times, if an album started to get a bit of traction then we might have hoped to be invited to play a festival and a few club dates in Europe. This would hopefully have broken even financially for the band and resulted in quite a few more album sales and raised the band’s profile. A good friend of mine did this a few years ago and did quite well out of it (as indeed has the guitarist / songwriter of both of these bands).  

This would be quite cool thing for someone who normally plays pubs and the tribute circuit, but it is lot more serious for a lot of my pro muso mates who regularly make money from playing small scale tours in Europe. Essentially this is make or break for them. 

[Lozz196]

Pretty much like my old band then, our record company was in Germany and we had started to do a lot more work over there.

[peteb]

Just now, Lozz196 said:

Pretty much like my old band then, our record company was in Germany and we had started to do a lot more work over there.

Very different genre, but basically the same thing

[Chris2112]

😂

 

So, has anyone come forward to confirm that the government were to blame for this or are the papers still relying on the ever-convenient 'unnamed source close to the negotiations' to push their agenda. So far as I can see, Lord True is the only person on record to make a definitive statement about this issue and he confirms that the EU refused the terms put forward by the UK government.

Of course, that has been largely skimmed over by the press who intent on bashing the government without a fair presentation of the facts.

[ambient]

5 minutes ago, Chris2112 said:

😂

 

So, has anyone come forward to confirm that the government were to blame for this or are the papers still relying on the ever-convenient 'unnamed source close to the negotiations' to push their agenda. So far as I can see, Lord True is the only person on record to make a definitive statement about this issue and he confirms that the EU refused the terms put forward by the UK government.

Of course, that has been largely skimmed over by the press who intent on bashing the government without a fair presentation of the facts.

MPs are talking about it too. There is apparently going to be a debate in parliament this coming week, to try and force a u-turn. I guess if it wasn’t something the shower of ineptitude could reverse, then they wouldn’t be debating it. In other words, yes it was their decision.

[Steve Browning]

Unnamed source is a standard way governments can release information to gauge the response and deny it later. 

Certain folk seem to find it ominous, and the very people that do it deride it.

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, Chris2112 said:

😂

 

So, has anyone come forward to confirm that the government were to blame for this or are the papers still relying on the ever-convenient 'unnamed source close to the negotiations' to push their agenda. So far as I can see, Lord True is the only person on record to make a definitive statement about this issue and he confirms that the EU refused the terms put forward by the UK government.

Of course, that has been largely skimmed over by the press who intent on bashing the government without a fair presentation of the facts.

Thanks Chris - reading through the thread until your post I had assumed what everyone was speaking about was fact rather than conjecture.

Our largest wealth generator and source of tax revenues for the NHS etc is Financial Services. The EU is refusing to grant equivalence to the UK despite the fact we have essentially the same rules currently. They have, however, granted equivalence to the US a long while back. So basically they would prefer to punish the UK and see business go to the US rather than reach a sensible deal that works for both the UK and the EU.

None of this is one sided with a simple playbook of an evil UK vs saintly EU. It's certainly not so straightforward. 

[Al Krow]

25 minutes ago, chris_b said:

The Government refused to join the EU in a joint PPE purchasing project and we know how badly their own PPE buying went. As they have previous I'd believe this is more of the same nonsense.

Tbf they also didn't join the EU in a joint vaccine purchasing project. Thank goodness eh?

It's not all one-way traffic here.

[floFC]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Tbf they also didn't join the EU in a joint vaccine purchasing project. Thank goodness eh?

It's not all one-way traffic here.

Is the EU purchasing programme a fiasco? I didn’t think so, I didn’t see anything about that. The rollout for sure is and has been handled much better in the UK.

I remember reading that the UK buys each dose of Pfizer vaccine for 28 (euros or GBP) whereas the EU buys them for 18 (euros or GBP) - economy of scale.

Edited January 11, 2021 by floFC
Make it more UK positive.

[Woodinblack]

20 hours ago, Leonard Smalls said:

The UK pushed for a more ambitious agreement with the EU on the temporary movement of business travellers, which would have covered musicians and others, but our proposals were rejected by the EU,” they said.

Which to me sounds like they didn't want to roll the standard contract out, they wanted to wrap up touring musicians with business travellers, which I don't think is the same sort of thing, and would have complicated it.

Seems very much - here is our standard cut and paste musicians scheme we already do for the rest of the world, can we have that - yes / no. Not like they had any other time to negotiate as it had been left so long

19 hours ago, ambient said:

It’s not just musicians of course. There’s quite a few other arts related occupations affected too - DJs for example.

I have met DJs who believe they fit in the musician category.

9 hours ago, chris_b said:

The Government refused to join the EU in a joint PPE purchasing project and we know how badly their own PPE buying went. As they have previous I'd believe this is more of the same nonsense.

Obviously free to talk about what you want, but we have done the vaccine and covid to death in other threads, and to avoid al riding in here on his spitfire to save us, can we sort of have a thread where we can talk about touring musician issues rather than end up at the same (locked) thread about b*xit?

[Woodinblack]

Just looking on the EU website, there is a touring visa which allows non EU nationals to travel in the shengen area for 90 days without additional requirements.

So I assume this is what was offered. It is a lot easier to offer something you have already established the rules for.

[mcnach]

48 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Just looking on the EU website, there is a touring visa which allows non EU nationals to travel in the shengen area for 90 days without additional requirements.

So I assume this is what was offered. It is a lot easier to offer something you have already established the rules for.

 

Indeed, but that doesn't make the same headline as saying that the evil EU hates us now. It is a complex situation and we need to be cautious about 'news': we rarely get all the relevant information from a single source, unfortunately, and it works both ways both for pro and anti-EU stances.

[cetera]

http://www.timbrennan.co.uk/blog/visa-free-work-permits-for-the-eu27/uk-technical-crew-to-lose-out-in-work-permit-chaos/

[Cat Burrito]

22 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

Would any of us on here have found the 30 day limit to be unworkable for their bands. 

I'd personally be within the 30 days but it's the wider picture of crew and people outside of my band that are impacted upon too. This does knock on to smaller bands.

We've now lost a touring deal with a Norwegian promoter and because of the pandemic we've got rescheduled tours of Spain, Norway and other parts of Europe that are now looking more problematic. It just pushes it closer towards the "too hard to do" box. Nothing is certain yet and I am trying to remain optimistic. It isn't a great move though, on top of everything else.