Visa free touring in EU.

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Just looking on the EU website, there is a touring visa which allows non EU nationals to travel in the shengen area for 90 days without additional requirements.

Interesting. Does it allow ANY / ALL non-EU nationals to access this and does this cover musicians touring or is it just a tourist visa?

[Woodinblack]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Interesting. Does it allow ANY / ALL non-EU nationals to access this and does this cover musicians touring or is it just a tourist visa?

This was actually part of the Canada deal documenation, but it appears in other places too*, so I assume it is what is meant by their musician visa. It is different to the tourist visa as it allows you to earn money, and the definitiion of musician was quite wide to cover support crues etc.

* It is on the EU website, which is pretty hard to navigate (or maybe it isn't if you know how it is structured).

[peteb]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

This was actually part of the Canada deal documenation, but it appears in other places too*, so I assume it is what is meant by their musician visa. It is different to the tourist visa as it allows you to earn money, and the definitiion of musician was quite wide to cover support crues etc.

* It is on the EU website, which is pretty hard to navigate (or maybe it isn't if you know how it is structured).

I understand that there may be a similar agreement in place with America? 

Certainly, my mate who promotes a big English blues festival has no problem getting acts from the America, but always seems to hit insurmountable visa problems the couple of times he has tried to book acts from the far east. 

[Al Krow]

30 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

This was actually part of the Canada deal documenation, but it appears in other places too*, so I assume it is what is meant by their musician visa. It is different to the tourist visa as it allows you to earn money, and the definitiion of musician was quite wide to cover support crues etc.

* It is on the EU website, which is pretty hard to navigate (or maybe it isn't if you know how it is structured).

I guess my question is - whether this musician visa is available to any musician from anywhere on the planet and therefore potentially available to itinerant Brits? And if so, have you just solved this?!!

28 minutes ago, prowla said:

As far as Thomann goes, I don't really mind if it's more difficult to buy from an EU middle-man who is fronting instruments wholly made in China.

Haha - that is nicely put! 

But as you say it's the used market (discussed elsewhere at length) and more specifically touring musicians that is the key point of this thread and more than happy to stick to that if the odd bit of "balance" is not needed 😉

But brilliant if Woody has just sorted it!

Edited January 11, 2021 by Al Krow

[Marvin]

This was a message put out on social media by one of my favourite UK bands, a really great group of hard working guys...

Quote

It has been a really tough ten months for all musicians and it may get tougher, especially for bands like us who spend half of our touring life in the EU. We had to jump through so many bureaucratic hoops to be able to perform in the USA where the cost of the tour is greater than the income; If we end up with the same challenges when we tour countries like Germany, Belgium and Holland, it would be the removal of one of the last income streams open to us, bearing in mind the rise of Spotify and online streaming taking away from album sales.

We have been handed a petition which we would greatly appreciate your signature on, to try and force the government to reverse the decision to stop free travel for musicians in the EU, which not only threatens our livelihood, but so many other live acts as well.

It's pretty self explanatory and it's not good.

[BassBunny]

Here's a link to a current petition on the Gov website. Get on it as it won't be sorted on the pages of BassChat and being on the government website it will get raised in parliament, ( there are enough signatures already.)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294

[prowla]

17 minutes ago, BassBunny said:

Here's a link to a current petition on the Gov website. Get on it as it won't be sorted on the pages of BassChat and being on the government website it will get raised in parliament, ( there are enough signatures already.)

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563294

We need to make that a sticky!

[prowla]

Note there's also a link from the petition to contact your MP.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

I guess my question is - whether this musician visa is available to any musician from anywhere on the planet and therefore potentially available to itinerant Brits? And if so, have you just solved this?!!

I think visa free travel is free to anyone who has a reciprocal arrangement in place, which we refused.

So we don't get it.

The UK seems to have a strange view in these discussions that the EU should grant them rights that it is not prepared to echo, just because we once had the same rules.

Such as your question on Equivilance. The reason that they wont (indeed, can't) grant us equivilence is that we refuse to be bound by the rules on equivilence. It is irrelevant that our rules are similar to theirs now when we have made it clear we want to change them as and when we want to and won't accept the standard arbitration method. We have demonstrated quite clearly if we don't like the rules we are happy to break them.

And lets face it, its not like they need to. Our financial jobs are flooding away to their countries, so its not like it is that important for them.

 

[Al Krow]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

And lets face it, its not like they need to. Our financial jobs are flooding away to their countries, so its not like it is that important for them.

You say this as though it was a fact. But it's not. Check the number of jobs in the City in 2016 and the number today. I think you'll find it's gone up.

3 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I think visa free travel is free to anyone who has a reciprocal arrangement in place, which we refused.

Reciprocal arrangements - that's the key point, thanks.

[Al Krow]

...but it seems to me there is a bit of bloody mindedness on both sides here.

Have I understood correctly from the posts on this thread that the EU is essentially saying:

"We'd like to give you 3 boxes of chocolates",

To which the UK replied:

"Thanks, but we'd just like one box please."

EU: "In that case, you can't have any."

[Marvin]

17 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

So abolish tax then?...😂

That could cause inflation.

Tax doesn't pay for govt spending. Deposits aren't used by banks to provide loans. Economics is ever evolving.

[ambient]

This was reported in most papers last week.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/markets/eu-share-trading-flees-london-on-first-day-after-full-brexit-1.4450561?mode=amp

[Belka]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

I guess my question is - whether this musician visa is available to any musician from anywhere on the planet and therefore potentially available to itinerant Brits? And if so, have you just solved this?!!

Haha - that is nicely put! 

But as you say it's the used market (discussed elsewhere at length) and more specifically touring musicians that is the key point of this thread and more than happy to stick to that if the odd bit of "balance" is not needed 😉

But brilliant if Woody has just sorted it!

I'm sure that the visa would be available to Brits, but they have to be applied for, which would probably require the venues to issue invitation letters, and the applicants to show proof of savings. Also, they may only be issued for a certain country, which wouldn't help with multi-country tours (I may be wrong about this). Plus, I don't think this would solve the carnet issue. In the end, the hassle and cost of getting a visa will probably make lots of tours unviable; visas are available to tour the States and Canada but you don't see many smaller bands going over there.

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

You say this as though it was a fact. But it's not. Check the number of jobs in the City in 2016 and the number today. I think you'll find it's gone up.

Do you have stats up to the end of 2020 and projections for 2021 to back that up? And probably financial services rather than just the city would give a clearer picture.

 

EDIT: City of London website only has data up to 2019. It says highest number of jobs but smallest increase since 2012. Very hard to know at what level jobs will be for 2020 due to the combination of that pandemic and that other political thing. What I do know from a pretty sizeable group of current and ex-work colleagues in the City as that every large financial services co is looking to either move or cut London staff - again not necessarily down to that political thing, but it won’t be far down the list of reasons I suspect.

Edited January 11, 2021 by FDC484950

[ambient]

2 minutes ago, Belka said:

I'm sure that the visa would be available to Brits, but they have to be applied for, which would probably require the venues to issue invitation letters, and the applicants to show proof of savings. Also, they may only be issued for a certain country, which wouldn't help with multi-country tours (I may be wrong about this). Plus, I don't think this would solve the carnet issue. In the end, the hassle and cost of getting a visa will probably make lots of tours unviable; visas are available to tour the States and Canada but you don't see many smaller bands going over there.

 

I believe from what I’ve read elsewhere, that you need to apply to each country that you’re visiting. It wouldn’t solve the carnet issue, neither would it solve the VAT issue - payable upfront on entry to each country on merchandise.

[peteb]

5 minutes ago, Belka said:

I'm sure that the visa would be available to Brits, but they have to be applied for, which would probably require the venues to issue invitation letters, and the applicants to show proof of savings. Also, they may only be issued for a certain country, which wouldn't help with multi-country tours (I may be wrong about this). Plus, I don't think this would solve the carnet issue. In the end, the hassle and cost of getting a visa will probably make lots of tours unviable; visas are available to tour the States and Canada but you don't see many smaller bands going over there.

 

 

Just now, ambient said:

I believe from what I’ve read elsewhere, that you need to apply to each country that you’re visiting. It wouldn’t solve the carnet issue, neither would it solve the VAT issue - payable upfront on entry to each country on merchandise.

That is correct. The visa offered to British musicians and turned down by the government would have got around these issues. 

[ambient]

4 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Do you have stats up to the end of 2020 and projections for 2021 to back that up? And probably financial services rather than just the city would give a clearer picture.

https://www.ey.com/en_uk/news/2020/09/ey-financial-services-brexit-tracker-fs-firms-continue-moving-staff-ahead-of-brexit-deadline

[Lozz196]

One thing to be mindful of if touring in the EU, don’t take sandwiches as in the news today EU border controls are confiscating them from lorry drivers. 

 

[ambient]

I believe it’s partly a culture war - I’m not the only person saying that either, I’m reading more and more people saying similar - they hate the arts, they don’t like artists, and they really dislike musicians.

[skankdelvar]

47 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Do you have stats up to the end of 2020 and projections for 2021 to back that up? And probably financial services rather than just the city would give a clearer picture.

Dec 2020 article in the FT (£ paywall) reports that:

Brexit has failed to deliver a big hit to financial services employment in London, Financial Times research has shown, with international banks maintaining most of their staff since the vote to leave the EU and big asset managers hiring in the UK capital. Initial warnings that tens of thousands of jobs would leave the City as a result of the 2016 Brexit vote have been drastically scaled back.

An FT survey of 24 large international banks and asset managers found that the majority had increased their London headcount over the past five years. Twelve overseas-based banks, which employed about 71,000 people in London five years ago, now have a reduced headcount of about 65,000. But most of the decline came from group-wide restructurings at Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank and Nomura.

Nine of the world’s largest asset managers have ramped up hiring in the UK since the vote, with their total combined headcount rising 35 per cent to more than 10,000 employees over the period.

The article also notes that (over the period in question) new financial services jobs have been created in the EU and that further changes may occur.

If anything, it is suggested elsewhere that Covid may have more of an impact on the City than Brexit. Some institutions are planning to permanently disperse office-based staff to home or shared-office locations and one such major company (whose name escapes me) has announced its firm intention to do so. Should this occur to any great extent a decline in concentrated work population might cause a negative impact on local businesses such as eateries, dry cleaners, etc. as well as public transport.

(Also at  @Al Krow to save you having to dig up any stats) 

Edited January 11, 2021 by skankdelvar

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

You say this as though it was a fact. But it's not. Check the number of jobs in the City in 2016 and the number today. I think you'll find it's gone up.

Well, I looked at statistica and it had gone down from 1.2m to 1.1 up to 2019, but that is as far as the data has gone. Then I looked at Reuters, The latest Morgan McKinley Spring London Employment Monitor, which details hiring trends across Britain’s financial industry, showed the number of job-seekers fell by almost a third in the three month period from April, with available jobs plunging by 72% year-on-year in that month alone.

 maybe some of that is pandemic, hard to say, although comparable figures for Frankfurt are up in the same period

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Have I understood correctly from the posts on this thread that the EU is essentially saying:

"We'd like to give you 3 boxes of chocolates",

To which the UK replied:

"Thanks, but we'd just like one box please."

EU: "In that case, you can't have any."

I would like that car please

certainly sir, you can drive it away now

oh but I want it red, and with wider tyres, and no roof and only two seats and a smaller engine, and I want be shorter

but that would take a long time to do

Hey everyone, the car shop is bullying me to stop me having what I want!

--

if a deal is already written up, it can be just used. As it took the negotiations 3 months to shave 6 months of the reduction time in fishing rights, a separate deal would have taken a long time.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Woodinblack

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, ambient said:

I believe it’s partly a culture war - I’m not the only person saying that either, I’m reading more and more people saying similar - they hate the arts, they don’t like artists, and they really dislike musicians.

I am not sure they hate, just don't see the point of.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

Dec 2020 article in the FT (£ paywall) reports that:

Brexit has failed to deliver a big hit to financial services employment in London, Financial Times research has shown, with international banks maintaining most of their staff since the vote to leave the EU and big asset managers hiring in the UK capital. Initial warnings that tens of thousands of jobs would leave the City as a result of the 2016 Brexit vote have been drastically scaled back.

An FT survey of 24 large international banks and asset managers found that the majority had increased their London headcount over the past five years. Twelve overseas-based banks, which employed about 71,000 people in London five years ago, now have a reduced headcount of about 65,000. But most of the decline came from group-wide restructurings at Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank and Nomura.

Nine of the world’s largest asset managers have ramped up hiring in the UK since the vote, with their total combined headcount rising 35 per cent to more than 10,000 employees over the period.

The article also notes that (over the period in question) new financial services jobs have been created in the EU and that further changes may occur.

If anything, it is suggested elsewhere that Covid may have more of an impact on the City than Brexit. Some institutions are planning to permanently disperse office-based staff to home or shared-office locations and one such major company (whose name escapes me) has announced its firm intention to do so. Should this occur to any great extent a decline in concentrated work population might cause a negative impact on local businesses such as eateries, dry cleaners, etc. as well as public transport.

(Also at  @Al Krow to save you having to dig up any stats) 

So just a newspaper article rather than published, verified statistics, then? It Is the FT, hardly the most impartial journal! ‘Restructuring’ is just a euphemism for whatever means is required to reduce headcount...

In any case as you say, it’s likely that the number of people permanently working in the City, as opposed to employed by companies that have their main offices in the City, will be so different, any future stats will be hard to decipher.

/off topic 

 

[drTStingray]

7 hours ago, ambient said:

I believe from what I’ve read elsewhere, that you need to apply to each country that you’re visiting. It wouldn’t solve the carnet issue, neither would it solve the VAT issue - payable upfront on entry to each country on merchandise.

Indeed - and each border you go through with the carnets could involve you proving you're not carrying any 'additional' undisclosed goods (ie smuggling). The problem for general goods is it slows everything down in the supply chain, increases costs which inevitably fall on the consumer and in some cases (eg Northern Ireland) creates supply problems as companies decide it's not worth bothering - I suspect there will be other fall out which will come to light. 

7 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

One thing to be mindful of if touring in the EU, don’t take sandwiches as in the news today EU border controls are confiscating them from lorry drivers. 

 

Yes you're not allowed to export (or import) a whole rake of food stuffs without licence etc and that includes sandwich ingredients such as cheese or meat. So they'll be confiscated if the Authorities have got time to or view it as important. 

I also think the financial services migration would be a gradual thing - frankly if it costs significantly more to operate from GB, then it will fail to be competitive and gradually lose its position so firms would either lose money or move to maximise their financial effectiveness.  

As a Kent resident this is like turning the clock back 30 yrs - I'm firmly of the belief that those responsible for selling the populace daft ideas and claiming all the downsides were fake or project fear should be immortalised - the two brand new 1200 vehicle lorry customs clearance centres being built under 'Brexit' powers on green field sites near residential areas in Kent (so no planning process or appeals even if it's right in front of your house currently overlooking fields 😏) really should be named the N Farage Memorial xyz facility.  

Still we can bask in the new found ability wave our UK flags and sing Rule Brittania without fear of contradiction these days as a proud and independent nation - oh wait - we did that before surely 😂

Edited January 12, 2021 by drTStingray