Visa free touring in EU.

[Lozz196]

Genuine question here (as I don’t know the answer):

As I understand it at present Brexit has brought in regulations that mean Brit musicians/performers can’t tour with freedom of movement in the EU and EU nationals can’t do similar in the UK. As such there’s a petition and once it reaches a certain number of signatures it has to be heard in parliament.

My question is, if  we were still in the EU and a law/regulation was brought in by the EU that similarly found disfavour in the UK, would the practice of petition/parliament still have been open to us?

[Daz39]

5 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Genuine question here (as I don’t know the answer):

As I understand it at present Brexit has brought in regulations that mean Brit musicians/performers can’t tour with freedom of movement in the EU and EU nationals can’t do similar in the UK. As such there’s a petition and once it reaches a certain number of signatures it has to be heard in parliament.

My question is, if  we were still in the EU and a law/regulation was brought in by the EU that similarly found disfavour in the UK, would the practice of petition/parliament still have been open to us?

It depends on whether the UK's stance was to approve or veto the EU regulation, as we once had the power to do.

[peteb]

16 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Genuine question here (as I don’t know the answer):

As I understand it at present Brexit has brought in regulations that mean Brit musicians/performers can’t tour with freedom of movement in the EU and EU nationals can’t do similar in the UK. As such there’s a petition and once it reaches a certain number of signatures it has to be heard in parliament.

My question is, if  we were still in the EU and a law/regulation was brought in by the EU that similarly found disfavour in the UK, would the practice of petition/parliament still have been open to us?

No idea if there is a similar petition process to ask the EU parliament to consider holding a debate, although you could always have gone to your MEP to ask them to put your case forward for such a debate.

Edited January 12, 2021 by peteb

[peteb]

17 minutes ago, prowla said:

It seems like this one has!

To be fair, this is an issue that is going to affect many people here, especially pros who depend on playing in the EU to make a living, but also semi-pros like me. Also, it is something that has come about as a direct consequence of Brexit, which obviously makes it difficult to discuss without talking about Brexit. 

[skankdelvar]

16 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

So just a newspaper article rather than published, verified statistics, then? It Is the FT, hardly the most impartial journal!

 Well, couple of things:

* I couldn't find anything else in the last month or so (go further back and it's mostly predictions rather than outcomes) but feel free to read the article then search for stats that contradict the points the FT advances.
* The FT contacted 24 of the biggest City institutions. Many other articles on the subject seem to have been based on predictions by recruitment companies that may or may not have a commercial imperative behind their pronouncements.
* The FT's historic position has been extremely hostile to Brexit so I'm relaxed in respect of any partiality vs accuracy issues. If there'd been a jobs bloodbath the FT would been all over it.

Some reports I've read suggest that the increase in headcount has been driven by developments such as the fast-growing Fintech sector. Moreover, it's entirely possible that a bank might have laid off 50 EU-related staff but hired 150 for other projects.

As with all predictions involving matters with a tinge of controversy, it's fairly safe to assume that the outcomes will be neither as bad as some predict nor as good as predicted by others. Any unwinding or strengthening of the City's position as a financial hot spot may take place over years rather than months while other factors come into play. In any case, once they can find an AI that can do the jobs the banks will sack everyone they can.

[prowla]

48 minutes ago, peteb said:

To be fair, this is an issue that is going to affect many people here, especially pros who depend on playing in the EU to make a living, but also semi-pros like me. Also, it is something that has come about as a direct consequence of Brexit, which obviously makes it difficult to discuss without talking about Brexit. 

My perspective is that it is a specific issue which appears to go against the headline and the spirit of the “free-trade” agreement, rather than a general and inevitable outcome of brexit per-se. 
As such, it is something which is extremely relevant and important to the membership here and deserves to be discussed as that. 
Keeping it on-topic is really quite important. 

[peteb]

14 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

 Well, couple of things:

* I couldn't find anything else in the last month or so (go further back and it's mostly predictions rather than outcomes) but feel free to read the article then search for stats that contradict the points the FT advances.
* The FT contacted 24 of the biggest City institutions. Many other articles on the subject seem to have been based on predictions by recruitment companies that may or may not have a commercial imperative behind their pronouncements.
* The FT's historic position has been extremely hostile to Brexit so I'm relaxed in respect of any partiality vs accuracy issues. If there'd been a jobs bloodbath the FT would been all over it.

Some reports I've read suggest that the increase in headcount has been driven by developments such as the fast-growing Fintech sector. Moreover, it's entirely possible that a bank might have laid off 50 EU-related staff but hired 150 for other projects.

As with all predictions involving matters with a tinge of controversy, it's fairly safe to assume that the outcomes will be neither as bad as some predict nor as good as predicted by others. Any unwinding or strengthening of the City's position as a financial hot spot may take place over years rather than months while other factors come into play. In any case, once they can find an AI that can do the jobs the banks will sack everyone they can.

My understanding is that although the City has lost some jobs to EU financial centres, it is not as many as expected and as you say, they may have created new jobs unrelated to Brexit. A lot of money has left the country to find a new home in the EU, but I am sure that the City will continue to prosper, just perhaps not quite as much as it would have done. 

Your point about AI is potentially massive for the finance industry, as well as for many others. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by peteb

[skankdelvar]

OK, after a bit of digging, this seems to be the position as compiled by the Incorporated Society of Musicans (who they?):

* There is currently no supranational EU scheme covering UK musicians. It's now all at the national level.

* UK musicians will be permitted to perform in 30 EEA countries (EU27 plus Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein), and Switzerland, subject to each nation's specific requirements and laws. Some countries offer a fixed number of visa / permit free days (e.g. France). Others require a short term work permit (e.g. Netherlands). Some countries place more onerous conditions than others but these tend to be the smaller countries

* The total number of 'free' days varies from 14 days over 12 months (e.g., Norway, Latvia) up to 90 days over 12 months (e.g., France, Germany)

* Most countries seem to be agnostic about a musician's status whereas a few stipulate that the artist must be 'well renowned' and invited by a 'renowned' institution' (e.g. Italy). Iceland stipulates that musicians are welcome but there are different rules if you're performing in catering establishments (!)

* Due to the historic Common Travel Area, Ireland is completely open to UK musos.

Conclusion

UK musicians are not barred from Europe. For the next 12-18 months bands will have to piece their tours together at a national level. Some countries will be more difficult to get into than others.

Future

Visas (as opposed to work permits) will only be an issue in the short term.

In 2022 the EU will introduce a new, supervening programme known as ETIAS. This will become the over-arching visa / entry scheme for the EU countries and replaces the national 'Schengen' visas. Citizens of 62 countries which previously enjoyed visa-free travel (e.g. USA, Australia, UK) will from next year be required to apply for an ETIAS before they will be permitted to enter the EU. 

The UK is already an approved member of the ETIAS programme. As citizens of a 'third country' UK travellers (whether for business or pleasure) must apply for an ETIAS. The proposed cost of an ETIAS is €7 versus the current €60 Schengen visa. An ETIAS  will be more flexible than the current Schengen visa. A Schengen visa is valid for a period of up to 90 days in any given 180 day period of time. An approved ETIAS, on the other hand, will be valid for three years or the date of passport expiry (whichever comes first), and can be used for stays of up to 90 days in a 180 day period.

National work permit requirements may still apply.

[Al Krow]

@skankdelvar bravo - what an excellent piece of research and very helpful indeed! 

I thought Woody had nearly cracked the issue earlier with his look into the EU visa regime. But it seems to me you've provided a clear route map for EU touring musicians to look into. 

[Belka]

9 minutes ago, skankdelvar said:

OK, after a bit of digging, this seems to be the position as compiled by the Incorporated Society of Musicans (who they?):

* There is currently no supranational EU scheme covering UK musicians. It's now all at the national level.

* UK musicians will be permitted to perform in 30 EEA countries (EU27 plus Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein), and Switzerland, subject to each nation's specific requirements and laws. Some countries offer a fixed number of visa / permit free days (e.g. France). Others require a short term work permit (e.g. Netherlands). Some countries place more onerous conditions than others but these tend to be the smaller countries

* The total number of 'free' days varies from 14 days over 12 months (e.g., Norway, Latvia) up to 90 days over 12 months (e.g., France, Germany)

* Most countries seem to be agnostic about a musician's status whereas a few stipulate that the artist must be 'well renowned' and invited by a 'renowned' institution' (e.g. Italy). Iceland stipulates that musicians are welcome but there are different rules if you're performing in catering establishments (!)

* Due to the historic Common Travel Area, Ireland is completely open to UK musos.

Conclusion

UK musicians are not barred from Europe. For the next 12-18 months bands will have to piece their tours together at a national level. Some countries will be more difficult to get into than others. 

Future

Visas (as opposed to work permits) will only be an issue in the short term.

In 2022 the EU will introduce a new, supervening programme known as ETIAS. This will become the over-arching visa / entry scheme for the EU countries and replaces the national 'Schengen' visas. Citizens of 62 countries which previously enjoyed visa-free travel (e.g. USA, Australia, UK) will from next year be required to apply for an ETIAS before they will be permitted to enter the EU. 

The UK is already an approved member of the ETIAS programme. As citizens of a 'third country' UK travellers (whether for business or pleasure) must apply for an ETIAS. The proposed cost of an ETIAS is €7 versus the current €60 Schengen visa. An ETIAS  will be more flexible than the current Schengen visa. A Schengen visa is valid for a period of up to 90 days in any given 180 day period of time. An approved ETIAS, on the other hand, will be valid for three years or the date of passport expiry (whichever comes first), and can be used for stays of up to 90 days in a 180 day period.

National work permit requirements may still apply.

I don't think anyone was saying that UK musicians would be barred from Europe, but that it would harder and in some cases not financially viable for tours to take place. Also, no mention of the carnet/VAT issue which is separate to visas/work permits entirely.

The ETIAS is not a replacement for a Schengen visa. It's the EU's version of the current US ESTA - basically a visa waiver for tourist travel of 90 days and under. The ETIAS will only operate for countries which currently have 90 day visa free travel to the EU, countries like USA, Australia, Canada, NZ, Ukraine, and now UK. Countries which currently need a Schengen visa to visit the EU (China, Russia, pretty much all of Africa and Asia) will still need to apply for a Schengen visa. Any UK national who wants to work, study or live for longer than 90 days in an EU country will still need to apply for a visa (I may be wrong but I don't think this would be a Schengen visa - if you applied to work or live in France for example, you would get a French visa/work permit which would only allow you to work in France, not any of the other Schengen countries).

[Al Krow]

PS ETIAS looks like an excellent regime going forward. Well done the EU for coming up with that improved approach. Besides, it makes complete economic sense to me to be encouraging touring musicians in that way - I would have thought that the vast bulk of the economic benefit from touring musicians is to the local economies anyway (unless you're a mega star charging a $multi million tour fee). 

[Belka]

Basically the ETIAS will not provide any more flexibility/freedom for Brits visiting the EU.

 

[skankdelvar]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

But it seems to me you've provided a clear route map for EU touring musicians to look into. 

'Clear' might be a bit optimistic but there's a structure at a national level with which musos can engage. I suspect that notionally 'bigger' bands with management, etc., will find it easier than smaller bands with fewer professional resources.

In any event, nothing much will be happening anywhere until the summer. Covid control is managed at a national level so some countries may still be locking out foreign travellers into the autumn.

Any return to normality may not occur until 2022, at which time ETIAS will be on the horizon with its 90 day window.

[EBS_freak]

Crumbs, I dont know about musicians, but ham sandwiches are currently having issues crossing boarders...

[skankdelvar]

18 minutes ago, Belka said:

Also, no mention of the carnet/VAT issue which is separate to visas/work permits entirely.

Indeed, that's a separate issue

17 minutes ago, Belka said:

Basically the ETIAS will not provide any more flexibility/freedom for Brits visiting the EU.

I think that remains to be seen. ETIAS is apparently both a work in progress and - at this stage - an unknown quantity even for some industry experts. The early signs seem to be that ETIAS makes general travel a bit more difficult for citizens of countries which currently enjoy visa-free travel (which is, I suppose the idea, ETIAS being a response to global instability, terrorism, etc). But it may help to ease a situation where bands will (in the short term) be constrained by the requirements of observing national rules.

Edited January 12, 2021 by skankdelvar

[skankdelvar]

As a facetious postscript, one might suggest that doing things at a national level might be less time-restrictive than the (reportedly) proposed and rejected 90 day supranational EU window..

You could do 90 days in Germany and 90 days in France = 180 days in Europe. Stack all the countries up and you might be away for 12 months.

[Lozz196]

4 hours ago, Daz39 said:

It depends on whether the UK's stance was to approve or veto the EU regulation, as we once had the power to do.

Yes, that’s what the politicians would have been able to do, but my question is more, in that case once the politicians had approved something was the petition to parliament option still available if people disagreed with it

[Steve Browning]

I suspect the carnet situation is going to be the killer aspect. 

[Belka]

1 hour ago, skankdelvar said:

As a facetious postscript, one might suggest that doing things at a national level might be less time-restrictive than the (reportedly) proposed and rejected 90 day supranational EU window..

You could do 90 days in Germany and 90 days in France = 180 days in Europe. Stack all the countries up and you might be away for 12 months.

Nice idea but not true. 90 days in 180 is the rule for the whole Schengen area. If you tried to do that you would be deported. The only places you could try that are by going from a non-Schengen EU country to a Schengen one; Ireland, Romania, Bulgaria, Croatia and Cyprus may allow entry even if you have just spent 90 days in the Schengen area. Apparently this loophole may not last long as these countries are looking to join the Schengen area. 

People in the UK (not singling you out - and certainly not looking to criticise as it's not surprising - British passports have generally given lots of visa free options) generally don't have much of an idea of visas, work permits and residency. I think for a lot of people the idea of getting a visa is as easy as turning up in Turkey or Thailand and getting your visa on the spot. Lots of people also think the 90 day visa run - popping over the border then popping back, as you sort of suggested above, is an option. It's generally always been illegal, but a lot of poorer countries would turn a blind eye as they liked the idea of westerners bringing hard currency into the country. Believe me, it will not work in a lot of places any more, and to try to actually get residency in countries such as the USA, Canada, Australia, and now the EU, is a complex, drawn out, expensive process with no guarantee of success at the end.  

[peteb]

3 hours ago, skankdelvar said:

'Clear' might be a bit optimistic but there's a structure at a national level with which musos can engage. I suspect that notionally 'bigger' bands with management, etc., will find it easier than smaller bands with fewer professional resources.

 

That could be the understatement of the thread…!

This was never going to stop established ‘bigger’ bands from touring. For bands selling out theatre level venues, it is just another touring expense. Of course, they need to keep this additional expense down, so they are much more likely to use EU based crews rather than British guys. There are already UK based production companies who will only employ British techs if they have dual passports.

The real problem is for musos who rely on smaller scale live work in the EU to make a living; be it on cruise ships, sessions, holiday seasons, a band tour or promo work, or often freelancers playing multiple tours / odd dates with a number of acts throughout the year. Multiple work permits, carnets, different visa requirements, VAT issues for merch, etc all add cost to make it almost impossible for to work in the EU. 

[peteb]

BBC website (yesterday): Pressure mounts on UK government to resolve EU touring visas for musicians

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55616860?fbclid=IwAR0IbSqB7guSxvx2WxSQd9DESLX5JG8MUS96JytEjZXESKlrWNhic9RGA3Q

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by peteb

[EBS_freak]

Elephant in the room.

For what gigs? Hopefully it'll get sorted properly soon though.

 

I did find it interesting that on this page - https://www.ism.org/advice/eu-work-permit-requirements-for-musicians it was found that 78% of musicians report to perform in the EU at least once a year. I really find that hard to believe - or are those figures based on musicians who put through their summer holidays as a music related business trip for tax relief? Anybody else comprehend that figure to be extraordinarily high?

[Rich]

On 12/01/2021 at 07:46, prowla said:

This is turning into another brexit-bashing thread...

 

On 12/01/2021 at 12:01, Len_derby said:

This thread is a really useful discussion of a specific subject that is critically important for our ‘business’. Please, let’s not get it locked by the mods because of it descending into another bun-fight. 

I started tidying up and removing blatant political opinion and off-topic Brexity stuff, but I've run out of enthusiasm. Please stick to the original topic. It's interesting and informative, and it would be a shame to lock it.

[Stingray5]

I saw the musician's visa question was finally raised in PMQ's today but just as Boris stood up to reply both BBC and Sky news decided to cut away to the Scottish daily briefing. (By the time I remembered there was also Parliament TV, they'd moved on). Phooey! 😕 

[Rich]

Any idea what the answer was? Or the actual question, for that matter?