Industrial Radio Midi Bass

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, petebassist said:

Godins A4 & A5 also come with Midi output.

 

Two points:

 

1. As has been said the IR bass uses fret sensing to derive the pitch information which makes it much faster and more accurate than the alternative pitch-to-MIDI systems.

 

2. It's not a MIDI output on the Godin basses but a 13-pin connector that can be used to drive a separately bought pitch to MIDI convertor.

 

The problem with pitch to MIDI is that it's slow and the conversion speed is dependant upon the pitch of the note being converted - the lower note, the slower the system will be to identify it. The very best of these systems require at least one and half cycles of the waveform in order to identify the pitch. Most of the time they require more, and they also demand a very clean and precise playing technique in order to get the best out of them. Low E on a bass is 41.2Hz which means that at the VERY BEST a pitch to MIDI system will take 36ms to correctly identify the note. That's slap-back echo territory and a noticeable delay. And that is before you factor additional delays caused by the conversion to actual MIDI data and transmission to a MIDI device. This why pitch to MIDI on its own is unworkable, and why the Industrial Radio system is the only realistic system available and so sought-after by those who can afford it and are prepared to wait for their bass to be built.

Edited November 8, 2022 by BigRedX

[n.d.escher]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

This why pitch to MIDI on its own is unworkable, and why the Industrial Radio system is the only realistic system available and so sought-after by those who can afford it and are prepared to wait for their bass to be built.

 

Yes!!! Absolutly true. I had several pitch to midi converter and in the end they where all useless to me. Even if only 1 out of 20 notes are detectet wrong, is this to much for a live gig. Live i wan´t to have zero wrong notes.

Edited November 8, 2022 by n.d.escher

[Owen]

I don't need any MIDI bass for wrong note action.

 

But I would love one.

[itu]

Misa made TriBass: it is far from bass, maybe something like a bass oriented controller. But quick.

[Quatschmacher]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

the Industrial Radio system is the only realistic system available and so sought-after by those who can afford it and are prepared to wait for their bass to be built

Not the only one. There is another:

https://www.rorguitars.com/products/expressiv-midi-bass
 

When I ordered the IR, I could afford it. Sadly, with the amount of time that has now elapsed it’s costing me more each day as I’ve watched the pound’s value plummet. And as regards wait times, they are epic (in the original meaning) and I’m never sure if I’ll ever receive it. 
 

Finally got an email reply today after 15 months of abject silence. Apparently my “bass will be ready in 4 weeks”. That would be wonderful if true but I’m certainly not holding my breath. It’s very difficult not to suspect foul play with the way things have been handled. 

[BigRedX]

12 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

Not the only one. There is another:

https://www.rorguitars.com/products/expressiv-midi-bass

 

Another boring J-Style bass with an even uglier headstock. And very vague on the actual pitch detection mechanism.

[Quatschmacher]

46 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Another boring J-Style bass with an even uglier headstock. And very vague on the actual pitch detection mechanism.

It’s split fret scanning with piezo note-on detection in the bridge saddles, exactly like the IR.

 

Yeah, the headstock is horrid, more so as it’s being used on a traditional style instrument.

[BigRedX]

Also something struck me when looking at the photos the Rob OReilly bass the both this instrument and the IR MIDI bass have bolt-on necks. Why? The neck is an integral part of the pitch detection system, it's not as if you can take it off and replace it with another one!

 

Does anyone know what happens if you try and remove the neck from one of these basses? Can you? is there a connector in the neck pocket for the fret-sensing wiring? Could you fit a shim if it was required?

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Another boring J-Style bass with an even uglier headstock.

 

I guess they assume that if you want midi in your bass you want to look as cool as someone with a keytar!

[BigRedX]

And what exactly is wrong with keytars?

 

[GisserD]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

Also something struck me when looking at the photos the Rob OReilly bass the both this instrument and the IR MIDI bass have bolt-on necks. Why? The neck is an integral part of the pitch detection system, it's not as if you can take it off and replace it with another one!

 

Does anyone know what happens if you try and remove the neck from one of these basses? Can you? is there a connector in the neck pocket for the fret-sensing wiring? Could you fit a shim if it was required?

 there is no connector in the neck pocket. these basses are made from parts. they are not building each bass ffrom stratch so the bolt on is just a function of the business model. you can buy a body from one place and a neck from another. Buying a blank neck through is impossible. i bet bolt on makes the wiring a lot easier too.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, GisserD said:

 there is no connector in the neck pocket. these basses are made from parts. they are not building each bass ffrom stratch so the bolt on is just a function of the business model. you can buy a body from one place and a neck from another.

 

So they buy a neck, take it apart, refret it, and rewire it, and then somehow run the wires from the neck across some gap in the neck pocket into the body - really? Wouldn't that make it a little delicate?

 

So for the one in the OP there are 21 * 4 connections - 84 possible connections although I guess if you are doing it like a matrix like the one in the link, you could get away with 21 row lines and 4 column lines, and if you were putting the electronics for the rows in the neck you could reduce that down to a fast serial link, but you would still need power, ground, clock and data, and if it was serial it would need to be sheilded well from the pickup (you could certainly pickup the electronic noise in the darkfire)

 

[GisserD]

6 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

So they buy a neck, take it apart, refret it, and rewire it, and then somehow run the wires from the neck across some gap in the neck pocket into the body - really? Wouldn't that make it a little delicate?

 

Yup. 

the fretboard is routed with a chanel down the centre, or maybe seperate chanels for each part of the split fret, then the split frets are installed, and the routs are covered with a plastic cover. all the wires come out a hole in the heel of the neck and go straight into the body. yes it looks fragile when taking a neck off but theres really no good reason to do so. 

 

i beleive there is some clever resistor type arrangement to aid fret sensing, i think its one wire per string from memory.

[Quatschmacher]

The bodies were Warmoth parts (though not now standardly). The necks they had custom made so no, they don’t de-fret and dismantle. 

[itu]

7 hours ago, BigRedX said:

And what exactly is wrong with keytars?

The user interface. Billy Joel is the piano man. Next, please.

[BigRedX]

On 09/11/2022 at 19:26, itu said:

The user interface. Billy Joel is the piano man. Next, please.

 

A keytar is not a piano. The user interface is fine if (like any other instrument) you learn how it to its best advantage. Mine allowed me to do all sorts of things that would have been much harder to play on a conventional synthesiser and IMO it looked a lot better on stage too.

[itu]

13 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

A keytar is not a piano. The user interface is fine if (like any other instrument) you learn how it to its best advantage.

No, but the keys are still not my thing. And I went to piano lessons for 13 years. Strings, and fretboard give me more possibilities to express my modest abilities.

[Quatschmacher]

Just wanted to draw attention to this. I ordered one, but after 3 years and 7 months I still had no bass. I managed to get a refund after some hassle. Read about it here if interested:

 

 

[Lfalex v1.1]

Well done for getting your money back!

 

@itu You should check out the Harpeiji ! (Not that you could really  hang one around your neck on stage)

[Woodinblack]

Just imagine how long it would be if you hadn't been 3rd in the queue - they must put out 1 every couple of years at that rate.

[Quatschmacher]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

Just imagine how long it would be if you hadn't been 3rd in the queue - they must put out 1 every couple of years at that rate.

I think it is actually about that rate to be honest. 

[itu]

2 hours ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

@itu You should check out the Harpeiji ! (Not that you could really hang one around your neck on stage)

Thanks, but I have a Tri-Bass. Closer to my favourite UI.

[Bolo]

On 09/11/2022 at 13:00, BigRedX said:

And what exactly is wrong with keytars?

 

Exactly this.

(No idea who this is, but the keytar is not helping in making it interesting to find out)