Thomann post Brexit?

[Steve Browning]

There are special arrangements for this (Inward or Outward processing relief) but this neds arranging in advance. It makes for an interesting point as everything is potentially faulty.

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, peteb said:

The short answer is scale and costs.

The UK is a medium size market, worth selling to but not big enough to sustain a large scale manufacturing business. The fact that we have now put up barriers to our biggest export market doesn’t help, but of course at least there are no tariffs in place. The bigger issue (arguably) is costs. There is no way that the UK can compete with China and the far-east in larger scale production, even taking tariffs and shipping into account. To do so, it would have to massively reduce its costs, and seeing as the major element of that is labour, then that would mean paying significantly lower wages as well as reducing other associated costs (pension / NI contributions, etc).

As you say, the UK is good at small scale, high-end production (note that the same is also true for other northern european countries), but there is a reason why its manufacturing base has declined. I could answer in a lot more detail, but that leads to a risk of derailing the thread and of opening up a debate that the mods won’t like.

Oh go on, I'm sure the ban is on politics and party politics rather than economics. So long as we refer to the decisions made by government in terms of macro-economics and their consequences we can surely have a grown up conversation.

In terms of musical instruments and amplification there is an opportunity here. Since most of the stuff is actually made in the far east, not just China there is no reason it can't be imported directly and there is an opportunity for some increased design work and branding taking place with a more isolated home market. People like Studiospares already directly import and brand Chinese sourced gear for example, and the removal even if temporarily of competitors like Thomann will create all sorts of opportunities for UK based middlemen. There is a chance for a revival of old British brands or the development of new ones, Barefaced China anyone? I can see that for European brands like RCF, Markbass and the like that this could be challenging but there is no real reason why they shouldn't set up UK based subsidiaries. As you point out this is a medium sized market this means you won't necessarily get the full savings of a Europe wide purchasing train but it will still be a market big enough for most brands to want a presence. Eventually I think there will be either more negotiated deals or maybe a genuine Thomann UK shipping directly for the domestic market as we find ways around the bindings we have wrapped ourselves up in. It's unlikely to be better than EU membership but it won't stay as uncertain as it is now. My thoughts are that the steady erosion of the pound will be more significant in the long run.

The other thing is that with the shutdown of the entertainments industry nobody is buying now or will be for at least another six months, if i was a European seller I'd hang fire on implementing changes whilst the market is quiet.

[petecarlton]

This is what Thomann say on their site about this issue (unless I'm also having "blindness" issues, it hasn't been quoted in this thread).  Having read it, I'm not a great deal the wiser, but I'm sure some of our more forensic accountancy experts can translate 😉

Information for non-EU countries

 

Customs and import charges for non EU countries

For deliveries from Germany to countries outside the European Union customs or import charges are to be paid upon arrival of the shipment in the country of destination.

This is over and above the standard import duties. Charges for customs clearance (and its handling, e.g. by a forwarding agency) have to be paid for by the customer. We do not have any influence on these charges and cannot predict the amount. The customs regulations vary significantly from country to country.

If you would like more information about this please contact your local customs office. Please note that you, as an importer, have to adhere to the regulations of the country in question.

Special Rules for our UK Customers

With the new trade agreement between the EU and the UK, new regulations have been applied to all commercial transactions between the two distinct markets.

As of 01.01.2021 all current prices shown on our UK website do not include VAT 20% (Value Added Tax).
According to the new regulations, the VAT (20%) and additional handling fees will have to be paid to the courier upon delivery with the only exceptions being special VAT-free zones (e.g Channel Islands).

Based on the feedback we have received so far, Government Charges will be collected by UPS and they consist of the 20% VAT plus a small amount for the paperwork involved (usually around 2.5%). There is also an additional amount to be paid to UPS for their service, which is a minimum of 11.50 GBP. As not every order has the same customs requirement, for further information we advise that you check the costs and procedures in advance with the courier locally.

VAT will be added and charged by Thomann GmbH after processing an order only if the net value of the items is equal or less than 135.00 GBP or if delivery will be to Northern Ireland. In these cases, no additional fee will have to be paid upon delivery.

For items exceeding 31 kilos, or heavy goods such as PA equipment, pianos, etc., we have to employ the services of a heavy haulage company. As these new regulations only came into effect a few days before the end of the transition period, delivery by this method of transport to the UK is currently not possible. Further information will be included in our order confirmation email.
Please be assured that with more than 20 years of close cooperation with our UK customers, it is our priority to find new solutions that will allow us to provide door-to-door online prices as soon as possible.

[stewblack]

So we need a Northern Irish or Channel Island based Basschatter to head up a syndicate. We all send him/her our orders they buy from Thomann and we organise our own couriers to collect from their gaff. 

I can't see any problems. Flawless proposition. 

[Al Krow]

So the sweet spot with Thomann is going to be above their minimum value [£99? - seems to change all the time] for free delivery and below £135 where they sort out the VAT and make the risk of losing VAT on returns disappear. 

[petecarlton]

56 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So the sweet spot with Thomann is going to be above their minimum value [£99? - seems to change all the time] for free delivery and below £135 where they sort out the VAT and make the risk of losing VAT on returns disappear. 

Something like that, I reckon.  I have just looked at an order I put in on 7th Jan (I completely forgot about the B-word), which was held up because a minor item was out of stock.  I asked them to split the shipment, so I could receive the other stuff, which brought the total to £126 (it would have been £140).  But the invoice shows both these totals include 20% VAT.  Now I'm... er... "totally" confused.  Love the look of those Minotaur straps, btw.

[jrixn1]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

So the sweet spot with Thomann is going to be above their minimum value [£99? - seems to change all the time] for free delivery and below £135 where they sort out the VAT and make the risk of losing VAT on returns disappear. 

The free shipping is if your basket is £135 or above.  They sort out the VAT for you (so no courier handling fee) if your 'Net amount' is £135 or below.  But postage contributes towards 'Net amount' (I placed an order last week).  So sweet spot is a basket of exactly £135, as you'll get free postage and no courier handling fee.  The amount to avoid in your basket is £128.33 - £134.99, the worst of both worlds, as you'll have to pay both the £8 shipping and the ~£12 courier handling fee; in that case, you'd save £20 by adding £7 of stuff to your basket.

[unpluggedjack]

On 14/01/2021 at 16:57, Aidan63 said:

did you get a breakdown of the charges and how they were calculated, the vat part and collection charge . Did Thomann charge any shipping ?

shipping was included as the order was above their free shipping value.

On an order value of around £153, the following additional charges were applied on delivery

Import VAT = £34.62

UK Duty = £5.57

UPS Transaction Charges = £11.50

 

Thomann displayed charges on their website no longer include VAT for UK customers.

[Zimzam]

I lll

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2021 by Zimzam

[Beer of the Bass]

I'm sure this will have been covered in one of the threads somewhere, but does anyone know how this is working with Bax Shop? I thought they also shipped from the continent, but it's showing VAT inclusive prices in the shop and at checkout.

[Steve Browning]

I would think they must import into the UK as themselves and then sell within the UK.

[Annette1954]

Although I do play a bit of bass I'm really a guitarist.

But this seemed the best thread on the net on post-brexit Thomann.

I'm going to buy a Gretsch New Yorker soon.

The cheapest place I can find one in the UK is £584 and the usual price is £650.

Thomann are selling it for £444 which with VAT is £533 and from what I can fathom above there will be a £12 handling charge as well so that adds up to £545 - still cheaper than the Uk sellers.

Any other charges I should be aware of?

Bought loads from Thomann pre-brexit and always been happy with them.

Annette

[Steve Browning]

Possibly Duty because the country of origin is outside the EU. Duty free refers to goods that originate from within the EU. VAT is on top of all the charges, not just the price of the guitar. 

[Graham A]

@Steve Browning is correct, i bought a Musicman bass from Thomann's last month. As well as VAT, & the £11.50 handling fee there was an import fee, i think i worked it out as being approx 2.5%, which is about right according the HMRC website. UPS just grouped it together as Government fees on the invoice.

Be aware though goods are taking some time to be delivered. My bass was was ordered on the 15th January, & only left Standford Le Hope on Friday evening. Thankfully it's passed through Tamworth in the early hours of Saturday morning & looks like it's made it to my local depot. Hopefully picking it up tomorrow morning.

I had emailed UPS last Monday about the lack of movement of my parcel, & i was assigned a customer resolution manager whose been pushing it along all week.

Thomann did inform me that smaller items are getting through without much delay, it's the larger items that are taking longer, which seems to be bourne out by a number of threads on this forum.

@Annette1954 If you do order & your parcel gets stuck at least i've got a few email addresses i can give you to try & get your parcel moving again.  

 

Edited February 8, 2021 by Graham A

[Annette1954]

They're quoting 4-6 weeks before they're in stock anyway...

[Annette1954]

Although I don't really see why we pay duty on items not made in this country at all.

And anyway the UK has no manufacturing industry any more.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Annette1954

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Annette1954 said:

Although I don't really see why we pay duty on items not made in this country at all.

And anyway the UK has no manufacturing industry any more anyway.

It's to prevent money leaving the country, or, if it does leave, claw back some for the gummint. There are sometimes reciprocal arrangements with other states to not have these tariffs (trade agreements...), so depend on where the stuff comes from, up to a point. Other states do exactly the same. 

[peteb]

10 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

It's to prevent money leaving the country, or, if it does leave, claw back some for the gummint. There are sometimes reciprocal arrangements with other states to not have these tariffs (trade agreements...), so depend on where the stuff comes from, up to a point. Other states do exactly the same. 

So what you are saying is that it is a protectionist policy attempting to restrict free trade. Other states have FTAs (Free Trade Agreements) to get around this restriction and promote economic growth.

Ironically, the UK (until recently) has historically always championed agreements to encourage free trade amongst neighbouring nations. 

Edited February 7, 2021 by peteb

[Dad3353]

4 hours ago, peteb said:

So what you are saying is that it is a protectionist policy attempting to restrict free trade. Other states have FTAs (Free Trade Agreements) to get around this restriction and promote economic growth.

Ironically, the UK (until recently) has historically always championed agreements to encourage free trade amongst neighbouring nations. 

I get so sick and tired of dumplings reading into my innocent posts all sorts of stuff. I don't know why this happens; it's often the same folks, strangely enough. Enough, already..! I just gave a one-line answer to a simple little 'question', is all. Is that so hard to swallow..? 

[binky_bass]

8 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

I get so sick and tired of dumplings reading into my innocent posts all sorts of stuff. I don't know why this happens; it's often the same folks, strangely enough. Enough, already..! I just gave a one-line answer to a simple little 'question', is all. Is that so hard to swallow..? 

So what you are saying is you hate everyone and are on the verge of hulking out whereby you will then 'hulk smash' the country into the ground and all those you hate along with it? 😋

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, binky_bass said:

So what you are saying is you hate everyone and are on the verge of hulking out whereby you will then 'hulk smash' the country into the ground and all those you hate along with it? 😋

Yeah, yeah; whatever... 

...

 

[Mutley]

Well I ordered £155 worth on the 15th January, a week later and UPS bill me £50, decided not to pay, did the return to sender on the UPS website and it has been stuck in Feltham since, showing return to sender awaiting payment, I have tried numerous times contacting Thomann and no reply, where they usually get straight back to me, as they do when you want to spend money with them, so getting on for 3 weeks, cant get a refund and the parcel is sitting tight, wont be using them again, I have spent a lot with them over the last few months too.

[kodiakblair]

2 hours ago, Mutley said:

UPS bill me £50, decided not to pay,

So you won't be using Thomann because UPS billed you £50 😧

 

 

[Newfoundfreedom]

12 hours ago, Mutley said:

Well I ordered £155 worth on the 15th January, a week later and UPS bill me £50, decided not to pay, did the return to sender on the UPS website and it has been stuck in Feltham since, showing return to sender awaiting payment, I have tried numerous times contacting Thomann and no reply, where they usually get straight back to me, as they do when you want to spend money with them, so getting on for 3 weeks, cant get a refund and the parcel is sitting tight, wont be using them again, I have spent a lot with them over the last few months too.

 

10 hours ago, kodiakblair said:

So you won't be using Thomann because UPS billed you £50 😧

 

 

Yup. 

As we all know. 

Brexit was all Thomanns fault. 

It's also Thomanns fault that their buyers were totally unaware that they would be charged VAT and import costs after Brexit.

Terrible company.

I certainly won't be using them again. 🙄

 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, kodiakblair said:

So you won't be using Thomann because UPS billed you £50 😧

 

 

Of which £31 was the VAT that was due anyway (it’s now not being charged by Thomann unless goods are < £135).