EB-3 pickups - resistance, tone etc

[Paul S]

I have recently bought an early 70s Antoria EB-3 copy that I am enjoying very much.  It is a joy to play and the neck pickup has a tone that is different to any bass I have played.  But the output is rather low - I like the tone but it seems 'thin', it doesn't seem to 'push' the amp along at all but just kind of sits there.  Plus the balance between the neck pickup and bridge pickup is quite a lot out unless I wind up the bridge pickup to just under the strings.  And to my ears it doesnt add the extra bite I would have expected.

The pickups are, I believe, Maxon with a single set of pole pieces under the 'mudbucker' cover at the neck and a double set of pole pieces (humbucker?) at the bridge.  I just measured the output from the jack plug and that gave a reading of 9.47K for the neck pickup, 2.63K for the bridge and 3.64K when both selected.  

Now I don't know the first thing about pickup resistance but this somehow doesn't seem right to me?  I was under the impression that these EB-0/3 basses had a massive output which is what gave them their characteristic tone.  There's plenty of thud and a nice hollow resonance to it but I feel I could do with more drive.

It raises a few questions in my mind.  Is it worth getting the pickups rewound?  If I did would this affect the core tone?  Would they end up better balanced?  Or is it just the way it is and suck it up?

[hooky_lowdown]

The Epiphone mudbucker is only around 1.8k output. The original Gibson's had a massive 30k output.

Just get an Artec EBC4 Mudbucker, they're around 30k output (like the old Gibo's), and are dirt cheap. As for the Mini Bucker, I believe Artec do them also.

[BigRedX]

Some things:

1. You can't accurately measure the resistance of a single item while it is still in a circuit, you need to remove it completely from the circuit to do this. When you select just one pickup the resistance is in parallel with the volume pot. It's also in parallel with the tone pot and the tone capacitor. Even with these set to their maximum values they will have an influence on the values observed. 

2. The size of the cover and the number of pole-pieces visible on a 70s Japanese pickup (especially on a copy instrument) give absolutely no indication of what is actually going on physically and electrically underneath. 

3. There is no guarantee that a rewind will not change the sound. I would only go for this option if the pickup was actually dead or by comparing it with another identical pickup you could show that there must be a short within the windings.

If you like the tone but there just isn't enough output, why not just turn up the gain on your amp?

[gthyni]

DiMarzio model One is the way to go, I replace the weak neck p/u on an old Epi EB-3 and it made a world of diffence.

 

[BigRedX]

BTW if you do go for a replacement pickup check that it is the same size as the one you are replacing. The Maxon "mini-humbucker" pickups on my Ibanez Firebird guitar are sufficiently different enough in size for the standard replacements not to fit the surrounds, and for surrounds that match the replacement pickups not to quite cover the pickup routs.

[ikay]

The original Gibson mudbucker sure had some hefty coils!

[Paul S]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Some things:

1. You can't accurately measure the resistance of a single item while it is still in a circuit, you need to remove it completely from the circuit to do this. When you select just one pickup the resistance is in parallel with the volume pot. It's also in parallel with the tone pot and the tone capacitor. Even with these set to their maximum values they will have an influence on the values observed. 

2. The size of the cover and the number of pole-pieces visible on a 70s Japanese pickup (especially on a copy instrument) give absolutely no indication of what is actually going on physically and electrically underneath. 

3. There is no guarantee that a rewind will not change the sound. I would only go for this option if the pickup was actually dead or by comparing it with another identical pickup you could show that there must be a short within the windings.

If you like the tone but there just isn't enough output, why not just turn up the gain on your amp?

1-3, fair enough.  I'll take it to bits tomorrow and have a proper look around.  

Turning up the gain would make sense but I use a pedal with FRFR, it is a TC Spectradrive and there is an interplay between the gain and drive that, for the sound I want, needs to be set.  I can change the output level for volume but what I am finding lacking isn't as straightforward as that. 

1 hour ago, gthyni said:

DiMarzio model One is the way to go, I replace the weak neck p/u on an old Epi EB-3 and it made a world of diffence.

I had a look at those as I put one of these into an Epiphone EB-0 a few years ago.  As I recall although it seemed better it didn't seem £100 better.  But something to consider.  

2 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Just get an Artec EBC4 Mudbucker, they're around 30k output (like the old Gibo's), and are dirt cheap. As for the Mini Bucker, I believe Artec do them also.

I didn't know about these.  Checking them out - Wow, they are cheap!  very appealing to cheapskate like me.  The EBC4-CR mudbucker would be a drop in, as would the EBC4-CR mini-humbucker - exactly the same size as those already there.  Looks like both would be £37!  Could be my first step as it is the cheapest, can move them on if I don't like them. with very little outlay.  Thank you - very interesting.

 

[BigRedX]

3 minutes ago, Paul S said:

1-3, fair enough.  I'll take it to bits tomorrow and have a proper look around.  

Turning up the gain would make sense but I use a pedal with FRFR, it is a TC Spectradrive and there is an interplay between the gain and drive that, for the sound I want, needs to be set.  I can change the output level for volume but what I am finding lacking isn't as straightforward as that. 

I had a look at those as I put one of these into an Epiphone EB-0 a few years ago.  As I recall although it seemed better it didn't seem £100 better.  But something to consider.  

I didn't know about these.  Checking them out - Wow, they are cheap!  very appealing to cheapskate like me.  The EBC4-CR mudbucker would be a drop in, as would the EBC4-CR mini-humbucker - exactly the same size as those already there.  Looks like both would be £37!  Could be my first step as it is the cheapest, can move them on if I don't like them. with very little outlay.  Thank you - very interesting.

Fair enough regarding the gain for your set up. Although you could always consider a clean boost pedal (or similar that will boost the volume without doing anything else) before the Spectradrive.

Check the dimensions of the original pickups carefully before assuming that any modern replacement will be a straight drop in. I learned to my cost when I wanted to "upgrade" the Maxon pickups on my 74 Ibanez Firebird. The SD mini-humbuckers which are an exact replacement for the pickups that would be in a 70s Gibson Firebird didn't fit the pickup surrounds on the guitar, and surrounds the right size for the SDs didn't cover the existing pickup routs. I learnt the expensive way after spending £150 on pickups that couldn't be used without a lot of additional work.

Also bear in mind that the choke used in the Varitone circuit is supposed to be tuned to the neck pickup. Changing to pickup to something different might require a new choke to maintain the correct tone.

[Paul S]

Actually a clean boost might indeed work and something that can be simply turned off and on depending upon whether I use that bass or not.  Dimensions are fine - the Artec site has neat diagrams dimensioned out. 

My particular old EB-3 copy has VVTT rather than the choke switch so any changes should be relatively straightforward.  He says, positively   I'll have a think overnight and double check the measurements tomorrow. 

[BigRedX]

20 minutes ago, Paul S said:

My particular old EB-3 copy has VVTT rather than the choke switch so any changes should be relatively straightforward.  

In that case I'd very surprised if what is lurking beneath the pickup covers bears much resemblance to what is fitted to a Gibson EB3.

[Andyjr1515]

On Pete's EB-3 Tribute, I used a DiMarzio Model One and an Artec mini:

Now, whilst I love the DiMarzio - it has that real mudbucker ooomph but without the mud - and the above combination works really well (it is still his go-to bass), the Artec Mudbucker wasn't on the market at the time I built it.  And I have yet to come across an Artec product that hasn't blown the socks off everything in terms of bang for the buck.  So yes - I would try the Artec and if it's not great then consider the DiMarzio. 

[Paul S]

5 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

In that case I'd very surprised if what is lurking beneath the pickup covers bears much resemblance to what is fitted to a Gibson EB3.

I'll find out tomorrow   I did actually take it all to bits when I first got it but, of course, can't remember.  

3 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

On Pete's EB-3 Tribute, I used a DiMarzio Model One and an Artec mini:

 

Now, whilst I love the DiMarzio - it has that real mudbucker ooomph but without the mud - and the above combination works really well (it is still his go-to bass), the Artec Mudbucker wasn't on the market at the time I built it.  And I have yet to come across an Artec product that hasn't blown the socks off everything in terms of bang for the buck.  So yes - I would try the Artec and if it's not great then consider the DiMarzio. 

Thanks Andy.  Can't seem to go wrong at that price - £37 for both, incl. delivery! - just need to double check measurements.  Or, indeed, treble check them.  

Can I say what a beautiful bass that is, btw? 

[Andyjr1515]

33 minutes ago, Paul S said:

Can I say what a beautiful bass that is, btw?

Of course you can 

 

Thnx

 

[BigRedX]

BTW when you take it to bits post some photos of what's inside. It would be interesting to see what is under the pickup covers. 

[Paul S]

21 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

BTW when you take it to bits post some photos of what's inside. It would be interesting to see what is under the pickup covers. 

Will do.  I had made a note of the serial number on the back of the neck pickup when I looked first time and it worked out to be a '72 but what was going on with the coil/s I just don't remember  

[goingdownslow]

I found the Artec mudbucker similar in output to the Epi mudbucker. Some have the magnets in the wrong orientation and the polepieces are wider spaced than the Gibson.

[Paul S]

Right, had a better look and taken some pics.

Bridge pickup.  Measured it properly   A straight drop in for the Artec minbucker.

 

But neck pickup is a completely different size to either the Dimarzio or the Artec mudbucker.  Bugger.  There is but a single coil inside that box, you can just about see it.

 

[Paul S]

Hmm.  I asked one of the Artec dealers for dimensions.  If I had 2mm routed out from the width, took the Maxon cover off and used it with the Artec pickup then it might just squeeze in.  But I need to think about whether it it worth it or not.

 

  

[Paul S]

Well, had a think, measured and remeasured then sent off for the Artec pups.  I reckon they will fit with minimal fettling and be a completely reversible mod if necessary. 

We'll see if they are an improvement

Also got a Hipshot Supertone 2 point bridge on its way whilst I am about it.