Mesa Boogie sold, Ashdown, Trace Elliott rumours?

[Doddy]

5 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Agreed with first two points. But not sure about the your final one about it being a winner. For a start exactly what sound would it be delivering with a D class power amp and how would it differ from other already established products with loyal followers? 

Peavey will have done their market research and almost certainly have a better clue about this than most of us. 

A lot of people liked those old Trace Elliot amps, and there are still a lot knocking about. I reckon that a lot of older players would jump on a lightweight Trace amp that sounded like the old ones, even if only for nostalgia. Would a class D power amp change the sound? I've no idea. To be fair, I couldn't tell you what the Trace sound was. I used a combo early on, and it sounded great. The only reason I didn't get a full rig was they were too expensive at the time.

I don't think that there is a lot of brand loyalty anymore. People are always looking for the next new thing and older style, but modern, gear is pretty trendy right now.

I'm sure Peavey have done their research, but I lost a lot of respect for them after their episode of Undercover Boss.

[DiMarco]

"Trace Watts" coming from a class D powersection = IMPOSSIBRU!

 

[EBS_freak]

That Trace Watts thing was absolutely nonsense. Volume has never been measured in Watts.

 

Here's another question, at what point in history did the sellers of Trace gear start referring to it as "Try Selling It" ?

[lemmywinks]

6 hours ago, Doddy said:

I think the reason why nobody wants the old Trace Elliot amps now has nothing to do with how they sound.  Most of the players who remember, and used, the old amps are now around 40+ and want lighter gear. How many times do you see posts talking about wanting basses under 8lbs, or small lightweight cabs? The old Trace stuff is heavy.

Younger players are generally unaware of the brand because they have come up at a time where companies like Mark Bass, TC Electronic, Ashdown, and even Hartke have been popular. None of the hip players use Trace Elliot now. Amps like Trace and SWR aren't even on their radar.

I think if Peavey were to bring back the old Trace preamp with a class D poweramp, they would be onto a winner. The older guys (who are a massive market) would buy them because they want that sound, and younger guys would become aware of the brand and it's legacy.

 

I think it also has a lot to do with the lack of demand for that style of front end, times have changed and the trend towards compact, intuitive amps which pack features into as few controls as possible is the opposite of those old TE heads which are pretty archaic in their execution. Whichever way you slice it an amp head based around a GP12 SMX pre is going to be pretty massive regardless of weight. An old TE preamp in a rack bag coupled with a powered cab would be a way to get that setup without the weight as would the preamp pedal they currently produce.

 

Also with the constant debate on here about class D's apparent lack of heft (or whatever) and the perception that old school watts are louder/fuller there would be no guarantee that a lighter amp would sound the same anyway. The same people who still prefer their old Trace heads to modern micro amps would probably not be satisfied by a Trace with the same generic power section, especially seeing as a lot of them are already predisposed to think the original ones are best.

 

Btw I played Trace in the 90s and absolutely ditched them because of how they sound as did a lot of players at the time, this was before we got old and also before bass amps were even close to being lightweight. 

[DiMarco]

21 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

That Trace Watts thing was absolutely nonsense. Volume has never been measured in Watts.

Volume can only be measured in watts. An AH250 rated at 250 watts throws out peaks of 700+ watts. Trace Elliot watt ratings are real world, not the measured max output using a sine wave at 1khz with 10-20% THD going on like modern manufacturers use. Marketing personel are worse liars then your average politician.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, DiMarco said:

Volume can only be measured in watts. An AH250 rated at 250 watts throws out peaks of 700+ watts. Trace Elliot watt ratings are real world, not the measured max output using a sine wave at 1khz with 10-20% THD going on like modern manufacturers use. Marketing personel are worse liars then your average politician.

I gave up reading after reading your first sentence.

Power is measured in Watts. Volume (sound) is measured in dB.

Edited January 25, 2021 by EBS_freak

[DevonChris]

49 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I gave up reading after reading your first sentence.

Power is measured in Watts. Volume is measured in dB.

So true. Rudimentary physics.

Also, one Watt from a valve amp is the same power as one Watt from a class D amp, or even one Watt from a kettle. Again, (very) rudimentary physics as a Watt is a standard measure of power.

However, what I don't know is if one Watt from a Bass 400+ valve amp generates the same sound pressure (dB) as one Watt from a class D amp. I guess that depends on the speaker system being used, which convert electrical power (Watts) into sound pressure (dB).

[thodrik]

When this thread opened I was definitely of the 'why not do a class D SMX?' opinion, however when you look at the old Peavey 'Tour' amps and the current Peavey Headliner amp, you can totally see elements of the old TE layout in those amps. The current Headliner amp features, a seven band graphic EQ, a 'contour' pre-shape, onboard compression and '1000' watt class D power section. So, given that, it would make no sense to market a TE head that would pretty much have the same features as something Peavey are already making. 

Peavey tried the 'old school' approach with previous line. The amps didn't catch on. While the amps were good, they were not really significantly different/more powerful/reliable/reliable/flexible than the old Trace Elliot amps they were replacing and which were easily available on the used market for dirt cheap prices. 

The original TE amps are very much classics, but they are very of 'of their time' type designs. One look at the monstrosity (in a nice way) of the TE 'recommended systems' on the 1980s Trace Elliot brochures on the other thread makes this clear. The days of 'needing' to a take a really heavy 200 watt 4x10, a really heavy 200 watt 1x15 and pairing them with a heavy as hell 300 watt amp for a weekend club gig are well and truly gone. 

Peavey now own the brand, so I guess they can do what they want with it. It has to be said that the launch of the Elf has been very successful. It isn't the Trace Elliot of old, however the 'Trace Elliot of old' is no longer commercially viable, which as a long-time Trace Elliot fan is something I don't really want to admit. However, even I have sold or given away all of my old TE gear apart from the V6 at this point. 

[EBS_freak]

re:watts

And that there, is a classic whataboutism.

We should really talk about output losses (e.g. heat) at the amplifier before we even get to speaker efficiency...

Edited January 25, 2021 by EBS_freak

[grandad]

Not forgetting that a 746 watt amplifier is a 1 horsepower amplifier.

[40hz]

1 hour ago, thodrik said:

When this thread opened I was definitely of the 'why not do a class D SMX?' opinion, however when you look at the old Peavey 'Tour' amps and the current Peavey Headliner amp, you can totally see elements of the old TE layout in those amps. The current Headliner amp features, a seven band graphic EQ, a 'contour' pre-shape, onboard compression and '1000' watt class D power section. So, given that, it would make no sense to market a TE head that would pretty much have the same features as something Peavey are already making. 

Peavey tried the 'old school' approach with previous line. The amps didn't catch on. While the amps were good, they were not really significantly different/more powerful/reliable/reliable/flexible than the old Trace Elliot amps they were replacing and which were easily available on the used market for dirt cheap prices. 

The original TE amps are very much classics, but they are very of 'of their time' type designs. One look at the monstrosity (in a nice way) of the TE 'recommended systems' on the 1980s Trace Elliot brochures on the other thread makes this clear. The days of 'needing' to a take a really heavy 200 watt 4x10, a really heavy 200 watt 1x15 and pairing them with a heavy as hell 300 watt amp for a weekend club gig are well and truly gone. 

Peavey now own the brand, so I guess they can do what they want with it. It has to be said that the launch of the Elf has been very successful. It isn't the Trace Elliot of old, however the 'Trace Elliot of old' is no longer commercially viable, which as a long-time Trace Elliot fan is something I don't really want to admit. However, even I have sold or given away all of my old TE gear apart from the V6 at this point. 

I agree on a lot of this.

My personal point is, Trace were never allowed to develop in the same vein as so many other brands, and innovate and move with the times and refine things and change. Especially given the Class D, small amp, revolution of the past 15 years or so. They were just laid by the wayside when Peavey's initial attempt back in 2005/6 at relaunching the brand failed, IMO due to pretty much changing the faceplates on the same older amps and changing nothing, at a time when small, lightweight micro amps started to go stratospheric and the bass amp game changed massively.

It took 14 years for new products to arrive. I like the cabs to be fair. But the amps are useless to somebody like me and I hazard a guess, a fair few others.

Edited January 25, 2021 by 40hz

[thodrik]

 

59 minutes ago, 40hz said:

I agree on a lot of this.

My personal point is, Trace were never allowed to develop in the same vein as so many other brands, and innovate and move with the times and refine things and change. Especially given the Class D, small amp, revolution of the past 15 years or so. They were just laid by the wayside when Peavey's initial attempt back in 2005/6 at relaunching the brand failed, IMO due to pretty much changing the faceplates on the same older amps and changing nothing, at a time when small, lightweight micro amps started to go stratospheric and the bass amp game changed massively.

It took 14 years for new products to arrive. I like the cabs to be fair. But the amps are useless to somebody like me and I hazard a guess, a fair few others.

I think that you are correct in that the lack of continuity prevented Trace from fully developing like other companies. I don't put all of the blame on Peavey for this though. I think that the real issue was when Gibson essentially shut things down in the early 2000s. That meant that Peavey were not really trying to turn around a business/company as a going concern, but rather having to relaunch a dead brand.

That put Peavey in a tricky position in terms of whether they should (a)  launch a new modern product that is totally different to the old amps at the risk of alienating TE traditionalists; or (b) try and do a 'new and improved' version of the old classic design. They tried (b) circa 2005 and are now trying (a) with the Elf. 

Trace Elliot only exists now because Peavey decided to launch the Elf under Trace Elliot branding rather than Peavey. I don't think that there is really a separate Trace Elliot design team that is really separate from the Peavey design team (as was the case in the 2005 relaunch where Paul Stevens was essentially the head Trace Elliot design guy). It doesn't bother me though because the Elf is a cool product and it is better than nothing. If they launch other products under the TE branding I will certainly consider them. 

 

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, DiMarco said:

Volume can only be measured in watts.

As mentioned, Volume can't even be measured in watts.

3 hours ago, DiMarco said:

I give up.

But you didn't.

 

3 hours ago, DiMarco said:

HOW DO YOU RATE AN AMP WITHOUT INCLUDING SPEAKER EFFICIENCY?

Make up your mind what you are saying please? One minute you are talking about volume, now about rating.

you could aways use watts to say how much power you can put out, as long as you specify what that power rating means.

3 hours ago, DiMarco said:

WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! WATTS! ....

Where were you when Donald Trump needed a new press secretary!

 

[TheGreek]

Lots of criticism of how Gibson/ Peavey have managed the TE takeover and rightly so IMO.

TE was a market leader till it was sold and left to wither away. From the ashes of TE came Ashdown who took the design, invested in it and moved it into the 21st Century. Look at their range - loads of proper quality and diversity. Also you're getting what is arguably the best Customer Service of any manufacturer.

As a long time lover of TE (and not just the slap tone) I think it's a disgrace how TE has been mismanaged and neglected since control left the UK. I had this very conversation with Paul Stevens at LBGS - he left shortly after to join Blackstar because of the lack of commitment to the brand.

It's implied that TE fans are just reminiscing - I'm not - I want a modern day TE with the brand's legendary quality which lives up to the name and reputation of the classic, world beating stuff and TBH the only place I believe this is available in 2021 is ASHDOWN!!! 

The talk of how good the Elf is disgusts me - it's a pitiful excuse for an amp wearing the TE label - 200w?? Where are the proper models? The 350 and 500w models? If there was any commitment to rebuilding the brand they would have been in the pipeline when the 200w was released - what have we seen since? NOTHING!!!

Maybe TE is only going to be remembered by a group of 40+ old men - in the same way as other classics - Levi jeans, Indian and Triumph Motorcycles - if so let it die being what is was....a world beating legend - not some two bob imitator or tatt!!!

[Woodinblack]

7 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

Lots of criticism of how Gibson/ Peavey have managed the TE takeover and rightly so IMO.

From my POV - I blame gibson, because that is what gibson did with pretty well everything - they just bough labels to kill them.

I don't understand why peavey bought them if they weren't going to do anything with them.

7 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

TE was a market leader till it was sold and left to wither away. From the ashes of TE came Ashdown who took the design, invested in it and moved it into the 21st Century. Look at their range - loads of proper quality and diversity. Also you're getting what is arguably the best Customer Service of any manufacturer.

Thats why I think TE should be left - their spiritual successor is Ashdown, so there really is no need for TE there.

[EBS_freak]

Peavey bought TE presumably to give them a more premium label to effectively sell Peavey products at TE prices. Nobody would ever consider Peavey to be high end but a TE name may make the customer consider otherwise (even if it is all Peavey manufacturing inside - which to be fair, can be pretty good compared to other manufacturers).

I personally think the TE name has been out of the lime light too long now. Bringing it back in any great capacity would, I imagine, follow a similar path to the Acoustic reinvention. Not even the backing of Flea could convince people.

Only way TE could gain some sort of phoenix from the flame status is if they bring out something truly ground breaking - or get some of the original people involved (who probably won't be interested anyway). So I reckon it's stuffed on both accounts. To me, the ELF is a little toy thing - certainly not something that your would associate with Trace Elliot and the monster stacks of yesteryear.

Just had another thought... they could approach Mark King and build upon the history of him and TE - and develop a signature MK rig. Then all the doctors, lawyers etc that buy MK stuff would be interested - whether it sounded good, bad or indifferent. I still maintain MK is the only bass player that can shift gear for manufacturers purely on the fact that he uses it.

Spoiler- the secret in his sound is Mark, his DI from his amp - and certainly not his gear.   

Edited January 25, 2021 by EBS_freak

[Cuzzie]

20 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

 

Just had another thought... they could approach Mark King and build upon the history of him and TE - and develop a signature MK rig. Then all the doctors, lawyers etc that buy MK stuff would be interested 

He’d probably have to move to tech21 and sound like dUg for that to happen

[molan]

On 24/01/2021 at 12:24, EBS_freak said:

 

 

Here's another question, at what point in history did the sellers of Trace gear start referring to it as "Try Selling It" ?

Certainly quite a while ago. Trace Elliott was always called ‘Try Selling It’ in our store - believe me, it wasn’t easy either. Only thing harder to sell was a Hartke 8x10😂

[molan]

9 hours ago, DiMarco said:

Volume can only be measured in watts. An AH250 rated at 250 watts throws out peaks of 700+ watts. Trace Elliot watt ratings are real world, not the measured max output using a sine wave at 1khz with 10-20% THD going on like modern manufacturers use. Marketing personel are worse liars then your average politician.

You don’t measure volume in watts - that’s like saying you measure distance in litres. 
I do remember the days of cheap & nasty hifi manufacturers using watts as a measure of volume but they were selling to people who knew nothing about hifi 😂

It always creases me up when people say a particular speaker is ‘louder’ than another because it’s “500watts” and the other is “300 watts”. Apart from the fact the wattage figure is for power handling, it’s the decibel sensitivity of the speaker that makes the difference rather than any watts measurement. 

[Downunderwonder]

Vintage Trace amps can pump a sine at their rated output without overheating. That's the old way of rating. When it comes to slamming a low bass note that happens with a very satisfying transient burst. Hence the legendary "Trace Watts''.

[agedhorse]

All this talk of the "good 'ol days", how many of you were actually there in the good 'ol days, where hyperbole and bravado meant more that actual measured specs?

First of all, when bravado claims about Trace amps being able to deliver XXX watts peak... for ALL amps regardless of brand, peak power equals exactly 2x the "RMS" power, so the AH-250 better be able to deliver 500 watts peak or it's not able to deliver 250 watts RMS.

Next, since I worked for one of the companies that owned Trace before selling back to he original directors, I have more technical experience than most do about the product line. I looked up the technical docs I have for the AH-250 and the Vsat across the FETs is about 2 volts, add to this another 3V of sag at 4 ohms and you have a maximum voltage swing of 41 volts peak or 29V RMS. This equates to 210 watts RMS continuous, and with a 20msec burst rating of ~32V RMS or 256 watts RMS (burst).  This is real world, and burst ratings were often used because they do represent how an amp feels. While Trace made an elegantly designed (IMO) product (especially for the time), there were stumbles in the execution throughout the company's life that resulted in reoccurring reliability issues that required a significant amount of correction. 

In fact, with NO real world losses (impossible to achieve) the maximum power of this power amp is a little more than 265 watts RMS. This is 530 watts peak, and not achievable with real world losses. 

[Chienmortbb]

20 hours ago, grandad said:

Not forgetting that a 746 watt amplifier is a 1 horsepower amplifier.

On a back of an envelope calculation, my amp is about 700 watts, so not quite one horsepower. I am now wiping away the tears so I can search for a REAL amp.

[Woodinblack]

15 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

On a back of an envelope calculation, my amp is about 700 watts, so not quite one horsepower. I am now wiping away the tears so I can search for a REAL amp.

I am ok with my 800 mHorse amp.

[EBS_freak]

47 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

On a back of an envelope calculation, my amp is about 700 watts, so not quite one horsepower. I am now wiping away the tears so I can search for a REAL amp.

Ah, you've got one of those half-a$$-ed amps. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, agedhorse said:

All this talk of the "good 'ol days", how many of you were actually there in the good 'ol days, where hyperbole and bravado meant more that actual measured specs?

First of all, when bravado claims about Trace amps being able to deliver XXX watts peak... for ALL amps regardless of brand, peak power equals exactly 2x the "RMS" power, so the AH-250 better be able to deliver 500 watts peak or it's not able to deliver 250 watts RMS.

Next, since I worked for one of the companies that owned Trace before selling back to he original directors, I have more technical experience than most do about the product line. I looked up the technical docs I have for the AH-250 and the Vsat across the FETs is about 2 volts, add to this another 3V of sag at 4 ohms and you have a maximum voltage swing of 41 volts peak or 29V RMS. This equates to 210 watts RMS continuous, and with a 20msec burst rating of ~32V RMS or 256 watts RMS (burst).  This is real world, and burst ratings were often used because they do represent how an amp feels. While Trace made an elegantly designed (IMO) product (especially for the time), there were stumbles in the execution throughout the company's life that resulted in reoccurring reliability issues that required a significant amount of correction. 

In fact, with NO real world losses (impossible to achieve) the maximum power of this power amp is a little more than 265 watts RMS. This is 530 watts peak, and not achievable with real world losses. 

You are absolutely right - in the UK, the SS amps that you were going through were generally pants HH, scrap heap junk stuff. So Trace, being able to deliver "normally" was a bit of a novelty... And lets not forget, these Trace watts were normally demonstrated with multiple cabs... moving a lot of air... so yes, these Trace amps sounded massive to that 1x15 crackly piece of junk that it was being pitted against.