Experimental Prototype bass... I hope

[mhoss32]

@Daz39, ive got a few ideas brewing as i mentioned earlier in the thread, a lot of the material choices for this bass were made with the consideration of "if this experiment goes to s***, how much is this going to cost me?" and so most of the wood choices were relatively inexpensive... as such id love to have another stab using some more expensive wood options in the future, and ive got a few changes id make to the pickups and preamps next time round as well.

@binky_bass, certainly not too prying, im happy to share if it helps others!

The wood costs were broadly as follows:

Body wood - Padauk - approx £22

Body veneer laminations + extra veneers for the neck: approx £80 (these are expensive partly because they are thick constructional veneers, and partly because they cost a lot to ship)

neck laminations (veneers /oak boards / rosewood) - approx £50

Namibian rosewood block for the neck through - approx £45

other various veneers etc approx £30

macassar ebony fretboard - £40

inlays - approx £100

Flamed redwood top (imported from US, bit of a difficult one to quantify as it came with a couple others) - approx $80 for the top approx $70 for the shipping plus import tax... probably total about £100

for the rest of the parts:

Bigsby b500 clone (a good one) - £35

brass parts for customisation - approx £10

Tune - o  matic bridge - £21

TUSQ graphite blocks - £12

Sperzel locking machine heads - £91

assorted extra hardware (inserts, straplocks etc) - approx £30

for the electronics:

3D printed pickup covers + switches  - £33

truss rod - £16

carbon fibre in the neck - £32

PCBs for pickups, bobbins, preamps - approx £50

spool of 41AWG wire - £26

electrical components (resistors, caps, pots, knobs etc) - approx £40

bits for power supply + custom cable - approx £30

 

there were many other assorted costs for sanpaper, fresh router bits+jigsaw blades etc, and stuff i already had like the finishing products which i can't total up here. (if id had a swear jar in the garage id be broke)

so based on that math, total would be somewhere around £850-900 ish. which is frustratingly expensive really, ive built some nice basses before for less than half of that, but there just arent many cheaper ways to do some of the stuff on this one.

as for time, thats a difficult one to say. i think with all of the reworks of various things id hazard a guess around 240 hours, but maybe more than that.

hope that is helpful to anyone wondering

like i was saying, id like to do the next one with some fancier woods/veneers...

just seen this fretboard blank for sale... that sort of gets the cogs turning

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by mhoss32

[BassTool]

On 25/04/2021 at 15:25, benh said:

WOW. That is all 🙂

^This^

 

Oh, and... stunning 👍🏼

[itu]

On 27/04/2021 at 14:26, mhoss32 said:

The wood costs were broadly as follows:

Body wood - Padauk - approx £22

Body veneer laminations...

there were many other assorted costs...

so based on that math, total would be somewhere around £850-900 ish.

as for time... hazard a guess around 240 hours, but maybe more than that.

Priceless. Love this analysis. For anyone who wants to get a rough idea of the costs, this is it.

240 hours of work @ £8.91 / hour = £2138,40 ( https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates ), and I can easily see that the work with this beauty should be rated higher.

Total cost of the instrument is naturally in the hands of the luthier, but here £3000 would be the calculated absolute minimum.

Based on these, someone could make a similar calculation of a basic Precision. All machinery and development excluded.

[binky_bass]

I'll start the bidding process for @mhoss32 next build...

My bid is half a packet of Wotsits and a 'mystery box'*. Let's see someone beat THAT cunning offer! 

 

 

 

 

 

*no guarantee the mystery box contains anything.

[Andyjr1515]

I can't stop looking at those latest shots.

Every aspect, every photo, takes my breath away*.  Really.  

And that's completely ignoring the total McTrickery going on under the hood with those pickups and electrics.

 

 

*and trust me, I am well aware that this is no time to end up in A&E with a serious respiratory complaint.

[mhoss32]

@Andyjr1515 Thats High praise coming from you andy!! as i say, im extremely greatful for all the positive comments and encouragement

@itu im glad you found it useful! i think one thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the veneers etc went to waste during the making of this bass, so in reality if i made another the overall cost of materieals would be slightly less. id hopefully be able to get 2 basses out of all those veneers second time around with a bit more knowledge... and i hope id be able to reduce the timescale on it now that ive done it all once and as i mentioned earlier in the thread, i wouldnt want to attempt inlays this complicated on someone elses bass until id had a bit more practice!

Unfortunately for prospective buyers (but very fortunately for me) i've just managed to) buy myself a house, so a lot of my DIY time allocation will be going on plastering and laying laminate floors! then again if any enterprising builders in the north west fancy trading some hours for a bass then feel free to drop me a PM

@binky_bass... what type of wotsits we talking here? normal or giant?

 

[Jabba_the_gut]

Very, very nice. Can’t take my eyes off the headstock and back of the neck- just lovely.

Interesting to see the breakdown of costs. I’m not sure how many people realise the costs involved. Even for a more standard bass, the cost of wood and decent quality parts can be as much as a decent off the shelf bass before you’ve done anything with them!

Really looking forward to your next project. 
Cheers,

Jez

[itu]

1 hour ago, mhoss32 said:

im glad you found it useful! i think one thing to bear in mind is that a lot of the veneers etc went to waste during the making of this bass, so in reality if i made another the overall cost of materieals would be slightly less. id hopefully be able to get 2 basses out of all those veneers second time around with a bit more knowledge... and i hope id be able to reduce the timescale on it now that ive done it all once

Dear Sir,

Your work and cost estimate is in line with the work a luthier did with my fretless. I wanted some local wood (birch; through neck and the body) to the instrument and he made similar calculations to me later on. The work estimate was only a bit on the high side, but very decent - the fretless is unique. Another thing is that this man made me an exceptional bass which is priceless to me. I know yours is priceless, too.

Hoping to see your next project become reality!

Edited April 29, 2021 by itu
funny sentences fixed

[Si600]

4 hours ago, binky_bass said:

I'll start the bidding process for @mhoss32 next build...

My bid is half a packet of Wotsits and a 'mystery box'*. Let's see someone beat THAT cunning offer! 

 

 

 

 

 

*no guarantee the mystery box contains anything.

I'll offer a full bag of vintage Wotsits in a genuinely roadworn packet, a bag of Minstrels and a mystery box*

*no guarantee the mystery box is even a box.

[Si600]

Actually, I want to know how much a set of pickups would be and whether they come in 5er versions.

[mhoss32]

@Jabba_the_gut many thanks! Im looking forward to it too

@Si600 thats a good question. For one thing im now certain i can reduce the footprint and improve the overall design. The coils need to be shorter and need more coils, and most likely i could move up to a 41 AWG wind for extra treble response if you were going to use them with filter preamps. Once i've had a go at a rework i'll be in touch!

A 5er right away would be a bit overpriced IMHO, as it would mean a fresh design and reprint of the base pcb, but after a redesign it wouldn't be too tough i would think. 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by mhoss32

[Andyjr1515]

Just a bit of a post-script on this stunning build.

 

If you haven't ever read this thread, then pour yourself a beer or a long soft drink, find a comfy chair and read it from the start.  On every one of the nine pages of the thread there will be things you see that, I guarantee, will leave you open-mouthed in amazement.

 

For those of you who have read the thread, then you will remember that not only is the bass a stunning build, but also that @mhoss32 designed and made his own pickups and @mhoss32 also designed and built his own powered EQ.

 

And, what seems like an age ago (covid lockdowns/covid lifting restrictions/etc/etc) @mhoss32 sent me one of his prototype EQ systems to try out in one of my basses which I was delighted to try out and suggested I got Matt Marriott (an excellent musician who has done a number of videos featuring my builds) to do a couple of videos with it fitted. 

 

It's taken a while (Matt is a pro-musician so half the time he was prioritising trying to make a living when everything was locked down, and the other half trying to make a living when things started opening up again!) but here they are.  The first video is a run through just a very few of the myriad of settings and the second is a short original piece he used to demo the sound 'in the mix'.    The donor bass is the camphor-topped single cut.  The pickups are DiMarzio PJ s.  Matt is recording directly into the DAW.

 

As always with these things, best heard through headphones.

 

 

 

Video 2

 

 

 

 

[Richard R]

I like "position 7" -  no sniggering at the back!

 

Sounds great in all modes -  @Andyjr1515, please pass on thanks for Mike for recording them.

@mhoss32, I am still in awe of the bass in this build, especially that neck pattern, but now we've heard the preamps too! Very, very impressed. 

[PlungerModerno]

Sounds great with that preamp. There's a vid with a Seymour Duncan 2 Band EQ on that youtube channel in the same bass, which also sounds great, but I think the Filter EQ would be a lot more flexible, especially noticeable in the breathy highs, which seem to come out of that recording in a lovely way when the filter is more open. Nice playing, nice bass.

h

[Andyjr1515]

47 minutes ago, PlungerModerno said:

Sounds great with that preamp. There's a vid with a Seymour Duncan 2 Band EQ on that youtube channel in the same bass, which also sounds great, but I think the Filter EQ would be a lot more flexible, especially noticeable in the breathy highs, which seem to come out of that recording in a lovely way when the filter is more open. Nice playing, nice bass.

h

 

Actually, because all of these settings are sweeping (Matt 'numbers' them just to give you some idea of where he is in each sweep from zero to full) - and each of the settings interact with each other - there are an absolute myriad of sounds that can't really be demonstrated fully in a short, one-take, video.  It's closer to an on-board effects pedal in many ways than just an EQ.  And that actually gave Matt a few challenges - because some of the combinations of settings put out such a different shape of sound, he had difficulty fitting it into a single 'live' set of DAW recording settings.  There is the potential for major differences in tones.  Of course, it does need some time set aside to experiment and find the spectrum that suits your own needs. 

 

But that's just the external controls!!!  Because there are 6 (from memory) adjustable internal gain pots too that Matt didn't alter...but they are all alterable, cutting / boosting / moulding different ranges of frequencies for each pickup. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Andyjr1515

[Richard R]

Next refinement then, make the analogue pots digitally controlled so that settings can be saved. As if this bass wasn't complex enough!!

[SpondonBassed]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

Next refinement then, make the analogue pots digitally controlled so that settings can be saved. As if this bass wasn't complex enough!!

 

Maybe an app then.

[durhamboy]

Really usable range of sounds and a stunning bass too Andy, which I'm sure adds it's own colour. But really impressive EQ and that's only part of what's available. Wow!

[funkle]

 I keep coming back to this thread as I attempt my own ‘Wal-ish’ and get to know what I want out of electronics better. 
 

@mhoss32did you fully settle on your frequency ranges, boosts, slopes, etc for the filter preamp? I’d love to know. 

[Rich]

This for me is the crowning aspect of the build. Everything about it is awesome, but the back of the neck is just... wow.

This is some of the finest inlay/marquetry work I think I've ever seen.

 

 

[mhoss32]

Sorry for the late reply all, been away recently!

 

@Rich many thanks rich, Think thats probably my favourite part as well!

 

@funkle, I've been following your thread with a lot of interest

 

in the end for this bass i settled on 2 different ranges, one for each pickup being slightly different

 

the neck pickup was a sweep of 200 - 3.8khz i believe, and the bridge pickup was 200 - 4.5khz.

 

The Preamps that @benh and @Andyjr1515 have tested for me have are slightly different:

 

 

The board on the left is the filter board and the 2 res switches allow the user to change the frequency sweep:

 

Switches on - 200hz - 3.7khz

Switches off - 200hz - 5.0Khz

 

and the spread of these 2 settings can further be tweaked by swapping out some resistors on the back. the push pull pot switches from high resonance to low resonance mode

 

the second board is a normal volume control with a push pull switch that turns on a "pick attack" (very similar to Wal's pick attack mode), for which the frequency can be changed using the 4 red switches at the bottom.

 

I had to pause a lot of my work on these, my original plan was to batch produce and sell them but my recent house move has take un a lot of my time. i wanted to make a preamp that could be super simple, but could easily be made way more complicated if thats what the user wanted (the ability to add resonance switches, resonance pots, and even filter mode switches can be added by swapping out a couple of little jumpers on the board, no soldering!). if people are interested i will post all the info on these in the thread

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MoonBassAlpha]

If you wished to do a surface mount version, I'd be happy to solder the components for them in my lunchtimes

[funkle]

7 hours ago, mhoss32 said:

Sorry for the late reply all, been away recently!

 

@Rich many thanks rich, Think thats probably my favourite part as well!

 

@funkle, I've been following your thread with a lot of interest

 

in the end for this bass i settled on 2 different ranges, one for each pickup being slightly different

 

the neck pickup was a sweep of 200 - 3.8khz i believe, and the bridge pickup was 200 - 4.5khz.

 

The Preamps that @benh and @Andyjr1515 have tested for me have are slightly different:

 

 

The board on the left is the filter board and the 2 res switches allow the user to change the frequency sweep:

 

Switches on - 200hz - 3.7khz

Switches off - 200hz - 5.0Khz

 

and the spread of these 2 settings can further be tweaked by swapping out some resistors on the back. the push pull pot switches from high resonance to low resonance mode

 

the second board is a normal volume control with a push pull switch that turns on a "pick attack" (very similar to Wal's pick attack mode), for which the frequency can be changed using the 4 red switches at the bottom.

 

I had to pause a lot of my work on these, my original plan was to batch produce and sell them but my recent house move has take un a lot of my time. i wanted to make a preamp that could be super simple, but could easily be made way more complicated if thats what the user wanted (the ability to add resonance switches, resonance pots, and even filter mode switches can be added by swapping out a couple of little jumpers on the board, no soldering!). if people are interested i will post all the info on these in the thread

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am fascinated by your frequency range choices. You’re not far off what Nuno at Lusithand came up with, though my quibble with his pre is that it lacks the bright switch of the Wal/your preamp, which I think is important. 
 

I’m interested that you did not extend down into the bass range, but stuck to mids up to the low treble region. Can I ask your thoughts behind that?

 

(I have felt that going down to 80-100Hz to be quite useful, but would like to hear your experience). 

[benh]

Just read back through this thread @mhoss32 - still boggles my mind how good it turned out!

[mhoss32]

@funkle I'd agree, the narrow band boost (Pick attack) is a very useful feature. the one sound generally lacking from these filter based preamps is a "mid scoop", which the pick attack effectively remedies

 

in terms of frequency sweep not going below 150-200hz, (I mis read my own doc- these preamps do go down to 150), so early on i whipped up this little bit of kit:

 

 

This was my test bed, which let me test frequency ranges down to 50hz all the way up to 7khz by switching all the dip switches in different combinations. the thing to remember is when we're talking about sweeping down and removing frequencies above the cutoff frequency. with the resonance turned down and the frequency backed all the way off to 200hz (or just below) you are actually starting to pull the Mids out a fair bit, leaving you with some low-mids and all of the bass. to my ear, sweeping down below this started to reduce the overall volume a little too much and left a very boomy bass sound with very little in the way of harmonics.

 

I will admit however, it's totally a matter of personal preference, and with the addition of a pick attack going down to (and even below) 100hz would allow for a more pronounced mid-scooped sound. totally a matter of what kind of sounds you find useful. as i mentioned before, the upper and lower limits of the multi filter can be modified fairly easily (2 components to change)

 

 

@MoonBassAlpha i did look into doing an SMT version, with some through hole components, but i never actually got the PCB's made up. i may well look into it once i get back into this, i did my best to keep the whole thing extremely compact, but its very tightly packed components on both sides of those boards.