Scammer - Facebook Marketplace

[Downunderwonder]

32 minutes ago, MoJoKe said:

Whether anyone has the power to force PayPal to reveal the attached bank account to a PayPal account is a completely different matter.... 

Surely the cops have liason with the Singapore authorities that deal with PayPal.

 

It makes PayPal money launderers if they are paying out to criminals. You would think there would be a direct portal from all countries' cops to query the bank details of PayPal addresses.

[Velarian]

34 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

Surely the cops have liason with the Singapore authorities that deal with PayPal.

 

It makes PayPal money launderers if they are paying out to criminals. You would think there would be a direct portal from all countries' cops to query the bank details of PayPal addresses.

I believe that PayPal runs it’s UK services from Ireland and I have no doubt that the police will have established communication channels with them for this kind of investigation. 

[MoJoKe]

50 minutes ago, Velarian said:

The Police do. It just needs the police to wake up and recognise that a very active fraudster is ripping people off right, left and centre and then take action. The problem is that one instance of this chap’s actions is insignificant and on its own doesn’t trigger any action. However the cumulative effect is significant and if enough examples can be gathered they may be more motivated to take action. 

Really?  Sadly EVERYWHERE YOU LOOK they seem to reinforce the message, "just don't pay that way in the first place if you are unsure of the recipient".

 

https://fraudpreventionunit.org/2021/08/04/be-careful-using-paypal-friends-and-family-payments/

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2020/03/paypal-scam-victims-warn-against-fraudsters-who-ask-for--family-/

 

they probably won't get your money back, but it doesn't stop the police trying to investigate fraudsters though.....

 

[Velarian]

1 minute ago, MoJoKe said:

they probably won't get your money back, but it doesn't stop the police trying to investigate fraudsters though.....

 

I think that’s the point. Getting money back is unlikely (caveat emptor and all that) but stopping the bugger is more important. 

[Kev]

PayPal aren't going to assist if you've been breaking their rules and purchasing things whilst circumventing their fees.  I don't blame them to be honest.  But they should signpost the website more to spook people into not giving people free money in this way.

[Geoff scott]

I’ve also been taken in by his banter and been scammed for £55- really want to take this bxxxxxxx down the advert was in the name of Mike Smethurst but PayPal was in the name of James with email address [email protected] I’ll report to all I can and will help if I can if anyone is putting a case together against him

Edited March 6, 2022 by martthebass

[Maude]

I'm beginning to think that this is a good little earner. Safe as houses as nobody in any kind of position of upholding the law seems to give two hoots about stopping it. 

I could make good money from the comfort of my own home with absolute impunity. 

Sure beats working hard. 

 

 

 

Warning: This post includes sarcasm. 

[Bassfinger]

On 02/03/2022 at 11:41, Kev said:

PayPal aren't going to assist if you've been breaking their rules and purchasing things whilst circumventing their fees.  

If one uses friends and family as a means if avoiding fees on a transaction then one is commiting a fraud.

 

That being the case, you know you're dealing with an inherently dishonest person right from the off, so why have any expectation that they will suddenly become all honest and send the goods?

 

[martthebass]

1 hour ago, Bassfinger said:

If one uses friends and family as a means if avoiding fees on a transaction then one is commiting a fraud.

 

That being the case, you know you're dealing with an inherently dishonest person right from the off, so why have any expectation that they will suddenly become all honest and send the goods?

 

Bit of an over generalisation......

[Jon08]

Is anyone who has been scammed cordinanating a response to get him shut down ? We need to be able to prove the amount of his fraud to generate interest. As it seems like he's pulling in several hundred quid a week. Thanks to those wise sages going on about the likes of friends and family. Yes it's wrong to use it, yes scammers use it but Paypal have listened to me and taken some action. Can we not just post about getting together and stopping him.  

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Jon08 said:

Is anyone who has been scammed cordinanating a response to get him shut down ? We need to be able to prove the amount of his fraud to generate interest. As it seems like he's pulling in several hundred quid a week. Thanks to those wise sages going on about the likes of friends and family. Yes it's wrong to use it, yes scammers use it but Paypal have listened to me and taken some action. Can we not just post about getting together and stopping him.  

As individuals yes, but we can't do it in the name of Basschat as that would leave us open to possible litigation. Thanks. 

[Bill R]

Quick update. The police finally came round to see me this week (I reported the scam in January). 
 

I gave them all the details - screenshots of my Facebook chat with Mr Smethurst, PayPal payment notification. He had just posted more scam items on marketplace so I showed them that too before reporting him again. I also gave them the address of this thread and the details I’ve gleaned from here. 
 

They thanked me for all this but basically said there is very little chance of stopping him. 
 

1. Facebook are apparently very arsey about handing over user data to the police so very hard to get much even with an account name and address. 
2. I live in Scotland and apparently cross-border cooperation between Scottish and English police is abysmal- English police aren’t interested unless basically the Scottish force has got rock solid evidence to convict. 
 

Before they left one of them told me that if you want to commit a crime and get away with it then this type of fraud is perfect. 
 

[King Tut]

2 hours ago, Bill R said:

 

They thanked me for all this but basically said there is very little chance of stopping him. 

That's blooming shocking. And they wonder why people take the law into their own hands!

[Hamster]

2 hours ago, King Tut said:

That's blooming shocking. And they wonder why people take the law into their own hands!

That's really very bad as the case for simple theft - and indeed fraud, is easily made out. I understand if it's about 1 pedal on 1 occasion as that would effectively be one word against another, but this appears to be a serial thief/fraudster.

 

First you have to make the allegation of the crime. Use your local police force online reporting facility.  In your report you need describe what happened:

 

The date and location (the location is where the offence happened - (don't say Facebook or eBay or whatever - someone here must have the guys home address?)

 

That he was dishonest - "Whether, according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people, what was done was dishonest."

 

That he intended to make a gain for himself - According to section 8 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967, “a court or jury, in determining whether a person has committed an offence… shall decide whether he did intend or foresee that result by reference to all the evidence, drawing such inferences from the evidence as appear proper in the circumstances”.
 

He appropriated 'property' - 'Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner.'

 

Property - 'Property includes money and all other property, real or personal, including things in action and other intangible property.'

 

Belonging to another - 'Where a person receives property from another, and is under an obligation to the other to deal with that property or its proceeds in a particular way, the property or proceeds shall be regarded (as against him) as belonging to the other.'

 

With the intention of permanently depriving the other - The important test is whether the person appropriating the property 'treats it as his own to dispose of regardless of the others rights'.

 

In simple terms:

 

• I paid for the item and he failed to send me the goods, and that you know (and point to) several other victims of the same theft/fraud;
• His intention to make a profit/gain for himself is clear as he has done the same thing to several other victims (as above);
• Despite repeated requests for your money he has kept it;
• It was a £xxxx including postage
• He received the money and was under an obligation to send you the goods.

 

Point them to this thread.

 

They may NFA it straight away but you can take it further:

 

Make a complaint about the police using the IOPC website - https://iopc-complaints.egressforms.com/

 

The local Professional Standards Department will inform you about the rationale why it wasn't investigated in an attempt to 'service recover' the complaint.

Don't accept service recovery and tell them you want the complaint recorded.

Then they have to write out their rationale as a response to your complaint.

You can appeal their decision to the local Police & Crime Commissioner.

If you get no result - write to your MP informing them of the multiple scams and that your police force is doing nothing about it. 

 

If we can just get one police force charging him, then you can tell them about all the other 'unsolved crimes' and get permission from the court to consider them all in the same court.

 

I don't know about Scottish law - sorry.

 

 

[prowla]

Whilst an odd case here or there may be incidental, if a number collaborate and do the cross-referencing then it can have more of an effect.

[Bill R]

5 hours ago, Hamster said:

That's really very bad as the case for simple theft - and indeed fraud, is easily made out. I understand if it's about 1 pedal on 1 occasion as that would effectively be one word against another, but this appears to be a serial thief/fraudster.

 

First you have to make the allegation of the crime. Use your local police force online reporting facility.  In your report you need describe what happened:

 

The date and location (the location is where the offence happened - (don't say Facebook or eBay or whatever - someone here must have the guys home address?)

 

That he was dishonest - "Whether, according to the ordinary standards of reasonable and honest people, what was done was dishonest."

 

That he intended to make a gain for himself - According to section 8 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967, “a court or jury, in determining whether a person has committed an offence… shall decide whether he did intend or foresee that result by reference to all the evidence, drawing such inferences from the evidence as appear proper in the circumstances”.
 

He appropriated 'property' - 'Any assumption by a person of the rights of an owner amounts to an appropriation, and this includes, where he has come by the property (innocently or not) without stealing it, any later assumption of a right to it by keeping or dealing with it as owner.'

 

Property - 'Property includes money and all other property, real or personal, including things in action and other intangible property.'

 

Belonging to another - 'Where a person receives property from another, and is under an obligation to the other to deal with that property or its proceeds in a particular way, the property or proceeds shall be regarded (as against him) as belonging to the other.'

 

With the intention of permanently depriving the other - The important test is whether the person appropriating the property 'treats it as his own to dispose of regardless of the others rights'.

 

In simple terms:

 

• I paid for the item and he failed to send me the goods, and that you know (and point to) several other victims of the same theft/fraud;
• His intention to make a profit/gain for himself is clear as he has done the same thing to several other victims (as above);
• Despite repeated requests for your money he has kept it;
• It was a £xxxx including postage
• He received the money and was under an obligation to send you the goods.

 

Point them to this thread.

 

They may NFA it straight away but you can take it further:

 

Make a complaint about the police using the IOPC website - https://iopc-complaints.egressforms.com/

 

The local Professional Standards Department will inform you about the rationale why it wasn't investigated in an attempt to 'service recover' the complaint.

Don't accept service recovery and tell them you want the complaint recorded.

Then they have to write out their rationale as a response to your complaint.

You can appeal their decision to the local Police & Crime Commissioner.

If you get no result - write to your MP informing them of the multiple scams and that your police force is doing nothing about it. 

 

If we can just get one police force charging him, then you can tell them about all the other 'unsolved crimes' and get permission from the court to consider them all in the same court.

 

I don't know about Scottish law - sorry.

 

 

To be fair they did say they would investigate it fully and do what they can but they were pessimistic about getting a result due to the factors I mentioned. You would think there would be some sort of National fraud squad that could collate all this information and pursue it. I can’t be the only person who reported it to the Police. 
 

Facebook are also culpable. I must’ve reported his profile and his listings over a dozen times but he’s back posting stuff within a day or so. You would think after reaching a certain level of complaints someone might take a closer look. 

[Hamster]

'Action Fraud' are pretty useless.  They're only interested if the fraud gets well into 7 figures.  Anything much less than that and they pass it to the local force.

 

It's not so much the police force as the Crown Prosecution Service. The CPS will only authorise charges that are in the public interest or which are more or less a certainty for conviction at court.

 

Not the cops - it's the system.

[ambient]

There’s a TV programme on of a morning that investigates this kind of thing. Maybe they’d investigate this if enough people contact whoever makes it. Who knows, if might in turn push the police to do more?

[Bassfinger]

On 02/03/2022 at 10:04, Downunderwonder said:

Surely the cops have liason with the Singapore authorities that deal with PayPal.

 

It makes PayPal money launderers if they are paying out to criminals. You would think there would be a direct portal from all countries' cops to query the bank details of PayPal addresses.

Mrs Bassginger, ex detective extraordinaire, tells me that overseas crime enquiries tend only to be actioned for the most serious offences, rapes, murders, gun running, terrorism, that sort of thing. 

 

Even then the chances of cooperation is generally confined to EU countries and North America, and even within the EU the quality and willingness of assistance is variable. Anything East of Greece, forget it.  For really important stuff embassy staff may go out on the ground and make enquiries directly, but that is unusual.

 

Unless its in the tens or hundreds of millions you can forget any meaningful law enforcement cooperation from the likes of Malaysia.

Edited March 26, 2022 by Bassfinger

[Jon08]

I have always thought that the only way to put a stop to him is using the press . We need a local paper or ideally TV or Radio in his area to start the ball rolling then others will pickup on the story. I have spent some time researching a number of journalists who have covered online fraud including Facebook marketplace. I will try contacting two in the next few days. If his local BBC radio station has any form of consumer program how about all of us who have been scammed contact them? As he's not a business I doubt local trading standards will be able to take any action.  Once the press get involved, senior police will instruct that action must be taken, never known it fail....

    

[ambient]

4 minutes ago, Jon08 said:

I have always thought that the only way to put a stop to him is using the press . We need a local paper or ideally TV or Radio in his area to start the ball rolling then others will pickup on the story. I have spent some time researching a number of journalists who have covered online fraud including Facebook marketplace. I will try contacting two in the next few days. If his local BBC radio station has any form of consumer program how about all of us who have been scammed contact them? As he's not a business I doubt local trading standards will be able to take any action.  Once the press get involved, senior police will instruct that action must be taken, never known it fail....

    

There’s a TV programme that airs on a Thursday morning that covers this kind of thing. It might be worth contacting them.

 

There’s also ‘Rip off Britain’ with Gloria Huniford.

 

I really think this needs a wider audience, the police might then actually do something about it.

[tauzero]

The national press, and indeed Private Eye, could well be interested in this from the aspect of Facebook's lack of protection against scammers.

[yorks5stringer]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

The national press, and indeed Private Eye, could well be interested in this from the aspect of Facebook's lack of protection against scammers.

I contacted Private Eye ( as a subscriber) about this topic  giving links etc and did not even get an acknowledgement!

[Bill R]

On 03/04/2022 at 13:54, yorks5stringer said:

I contacted Private Eye ( as a subscriber) about this topic  giving links etc and did not even get an acknowledgement!

Just watched a show on daytime BBC called Scam Interceptors that looks at a online fraud - maybe the world of Facebook marketplace scams would be on interest to them? 

[Aidan63]

Is anyone going to have the balls to go up against Facebook and the legal muscle they can muster, look how little effect being called to account by US government had; they just carry on doing what they do safe in the knowledge that noone has the will to stop them or hold them to account, unless a government really wants to enact new laws specifically for these sorts of organisations