New EBMM Stingray Special Colours and Prices

[Guest]

Not sure. I’ve seen some MM blanks somewhere, probably a factory tour vid or something from a few years ago and you could tell the solid colour ones as the wood was neither grain matched nor joined in the centre. Some were 3-piece bodies. At least they make or an effort than Fender with their transparent finishes!

[drTStingray]

4 minutes ago, Kev said:

Yeah, sorry that's what I mean by lower grade, and wood with less attractive grain is almost always cheaper to buy, and therefore use.

The reason they stopped using lightweight swamp ash, some time ago, along with other builders is that it's become incredibly scarce. It's nothing to do with increasing profits. The suggestion weights of EBMM basses has generally increased has obviously not been based on any scientific study so some of the conclusions being drawn in this thread are frankly wrong and are disinformation (very popular in the US apparently until recently - it was reported a particular world leader was carrying a 15ft long nose in front of him - preventing him from wearing a Covid mask!!)

Something that hasn't been covered in this thread is the supply shortage of instruments and the huge backlog of orders caused by Covid. There's plenty of info about this on You Tube but basically suppliers are having difficulty in obtaining stock in many instances. Those with even a basic knowledge of economics will realise the relationships between supply, demand and price. 

So before people run off with the ideas that EBMM is a profiteering company providing worse quality products (including a weight increase) look at the broader picture. And as EBMM is a relatively low volume manufacturer which doesn't stock vast inventory, they will clearly be subject to worldwide economic factors earlier than some other manufacturers (whose business model is more volume led). 

This was true of the ash problem (Fender followed about six months later).

The other thing, I'm just curious why, given Andertons seem to be selling older stock of discontinued colours at prices lower than some of us paid 2+ years ago, some of the people moaning about profiteering and the like (in my opinion completely ignoring a raft of facts) haven't rushed out to snap up these relative bargains? Very curious 🤔😬

[drTStingray]

18 minutes ago, martthebass said:

I know the spec of my PDN Starry Night Ray is for an Ash body but I wondered why they would go to the bother on a solid colour like that?

They were all lightweight swamp ash until that commodity became relatively unobtanium - they use it on the Joe Dart bass still but that is relatively low volume. This started a year or so back when they dropped the natural ash and one or two other colours on Stingrays - I think they're now using poplar and basswood but there's no reason why that shouldn't still be light. 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by drTStingray

[drTStingray]

13 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

Not sure. I’ve seen some MM blanks somewhere, probably a factory tour vid or something from a few years ago and you could tell the solid colour ones as the wood was neither grain matched nor joined in the centre. Some were 3-piece bodies. At least they make or an effort than Fender with their transparent finishes!

These were for US Sub instruments IIRC so would have been given the textured finish (2003-6 period), and would be poplar.

Poplar was used for solid colours on Musicman basses in the 90s going over more or less competely to ash in the 2000s. 

The Steve Morse guitar in blueburst has a poplar body but no doubt with blanks containing more closely matched wood grain (although alder, poplar and basswood don't have as much grain as ash). 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by drTStingray

[Kev]

14 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

The reason they stopped using lightweight swamp ash, some time ago, along with other builders is that it's become incredibly scarce. It's nothing to do with increasing profits. The suggestion weights of EBMM basses has generally increased has obviously not been based on any scientific study so some of the conclusions being drawn in this thread are frankly wrong and are disinformation (very popular in the US apparently until recently - it was reported a particular world leader was carrying a 15ft long nose in front of him - preventing him from wearing a Covid mask!!)

Something that hasn't been covered in this thread is the supply shortage of instruments and the huge backlog of orders caused by Covid. There's plenty of info about this on You Tube but basically suppliers are having difficulty in obtaining stock in many instances. Those with even a basic knowledge of economics will realise the relationships between supply, demand and price. 

So before people run off with the ideas that EBMM is a profiteering company providing worse quality products (including a weight increase) look at the broader picture. And as EBMM is a relatively low volume manufacturer which doesn't stock vast inventory, they will clearly be subject to worldwide economic factors earlier than some other manufacturers (whose business model is more volume led). 

This was true of the ash problem (Fender followed about six months later).

The other thing, I'm just curious why, given Andertons seem to be selling older stock of discontinued colours at prices lower than some of us paid 2+ years ago, some of the people moaning about profiteering and the like (in my opinion completely ignoring a raft of facts) haven't rushed out to snap up these relative bargains? Very curious 🤔😬

Almost all your points are, again, applicable to all other builders like EBBM, and yet price rises haven't been seen anything like it elsewhere.  They also don't address the huge rise in the UK and not so huge rise anywhere else (yet), which should have nothing to do with Brexit.

You clearly fall comfortably into the "defend" category of players I mentioned earlier and that's fair enough, I have similar loyalties to a couple of brands, but the points being raised are very valid, and they are going to hurt EBBM's sales unless they provide an explanation.  Standard Musicman Stingray basses are not £3k instruments, they just aren't, at the spec they are a built to.  You can get a custom bass for that money.

[martthebass]

20 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

They were all lightweight swamp ash until that commodity became relatively unobtanium - they use it on the Joe Dart bass still but that is relatively low volume. This started a year or so back when they dropped the natural ash and one or two other colours on Stingrays - I think they're now using poplar and basswood but there's no reason why that shouldn't still be light. 

 

 

Well mine may be Ash but I wouldn’t class it as lightweight.

Edited January 27, 2021 by martthebass

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, Kev said:

Almost all your points are, again, applicable to all other builders like EBBM, and yet price rises haven't been seen anything like it elsewhere.  They also don't address the huge rise in the UK and not so huge rise anywhere else (yet), which should have nothing to do with Brexit.

You clearly fall comfortably into the "defend" category of players I mentioned earlier and that's fair enough, I have similar loyalties to a couple of brands, but the points being raised are very valid, and they are going to hurt EBBM's sales unless they provide an explanation.  Standard Musicman Stingray basses are not £3k instruments, they just aren't, at the spec they are a built to.  You can get a custom bass for that money.

You could argue in a similar vein that Fender Team Built CS are not worth the amount they are also, or PRS and any number of other manufacturers - CS is more expensive than this and is really just selected mass built parts with human finishing to an extent. 

Ive been interested in a Wal build  for ages - but I'd be paying over £6500 for that - yes it would be constructed from better materials than a Stingray Special but arguably, the sound is in a similar ball park. 

Im certainly not a supporter of these high prices but equally I'm trying to be a little more open minded than some people seem to be in this. I also think quite a few people give EBMM a hard time for several diverse reasons.

You may wish to see this You Tube covering the supply issue amongst manufacturers. Not sure if the Fender ocean going oil tanker has been affected by this storm yet or if there's still plenty of old stock on the system still to be sold. 

https://youtu.be/FPCf9t4B98A

Edited January 27, 2021 by drTStingray

[drTStingray]

1 hour ago, martthebass said:

Well mine may be Ash but I wouldn’t class it as lightweight.

I think the starry nights were pre Stingray Special? The specials are quoted to be at least 1lb lighter than the earlier design, as a result of lightweight tuners and other hardware as well as lightweight swamp ash bodies (until about a year ago for the ash). I don't think I was particularly lucky but my SR4HH and SR5HH specials are around 8lb or slightly under. 

Whilst sub 8lb earlier Stingrays certainly exist they're more likely to be around 9.5 lbs or slightly more. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by drTStingray

[Eldon Tyrell]

6 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

You could argue in a similar vein that Fender Team Built CS are not worth the amount they are also, or PRS and any number of other manufacturers - CS is more expensive than this and is really just selected mass built parts with human finishing to an extent. 

Ive been interested in a Wal build  for ages - but I'd be paying over £6500 for that - yes it would be constructed from better materials than a Stingray Special but arguably, the sound is in a similar ball park. 

Im certainly not a supporter of these high prices but equally I'm trying to be a little more open minded than some people seem to be in this. I also think quite a few people give EBMM a hard time for several diverse reasons.

You may wish to see this You Tube covering the supply issue amongst manufacturers. Not sure if the Fender ocean going oil tanker has been affected by this storm yet or if there's still plenty of old stock on the system still to be sold. 

https://youtu.be/FPCf9t4B98A

I get that prices go up for many reasons (higher costs for material, Covid restrictions etc). However, this still does not explain the huge difference between the increases in the US and here in the UK. I am still waiting for Thomann to tell me what they are going to charge for the new Specials. As mentioned before, it would be interesting to see whether it is a UK only phenomenon or a wider issue. Problem for EBMM is that, thanks to the internet, we can easily compare prices and rightly wonder why we are getting such a poor deal. As not many are hard core fans who only ever buy one brand and one brand only, we most likely just switch to another provider.  

[Eldon Tyrell]

2 hours ago, drTStingray said:

The other thing, I'm just curious why, given Andertons seem to be selling older stock of discontinued colours at prices lower than some of us paid 2+ years ago, some of the people moaning about profiteering and the like (in my opinion completely ignoring a raft of facts) haven't rushed out to snap up these relative bargains? Very curious 🤔😬

@drTStingray - Would love to get the HH in Burnt Apple for the old price. Unfortunately, the only HH model that Andertons is showing for £2,199 (jet black) is out of stock. The new H models now start at £2,749, several are listed for £2,899 and one at £2,999. Therefore, the HH version in the new colours (in my case Raspberry Burst) will cost at least £100 more than that (i.e., £2849-£3,099). So, find me the HH in Burnt Apple for the old price (£2,199 or £2,299, that's what the now "old" HH models go for) here in the UK and I'll buy it tomorrow!  Looking forward to hearing from you 😎

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

You could argue in a similar vein that Fender Team Built CS are not worth the amount they are also, or PRS and any number of other manufacturers - CS is more expensive than this and is really just selected mass built parts with human finishing to an extent. 

Ive been interested in a Wal build  for ages - but I'd be paying over £6500 for that - yes it would be constructed from better materials than a Stingray Special but arguably, the sound is in a similar ball park. 

Im certainly not a supporter of these high prices but equally I'm trying to be a little more open minded than some people seem to be in this. I also think quite a few people give EBMM a hard time for several diverse reasons.

You may wish to see this You Tube covering the supply issue amongst manufacturers. Not sure if the Fender ocean going oil tanker has been affected by this storm yet or if there's still plenty of old stock on the system still to be sold. 

https://youtu.be/FPCf9t4B98A

I think the themes of the thread so far relate to virtually no customisation options (8 colours, with no std colours on offer other than black, and H or HH only, not even hardware colour or fingerboard options), in a package that is whilst well made, is not handbuilt small luthier quality (although they generally have the QC sorted), that have been pricey for a while, that jumped when the Special range was introduced (fair enough, quite a few changes) but have jumped by an even greater amount with fewer (and worse IMHO) colour choices and no other changes whatsoever. I love Stingrays and Sterlings but you’ve got to admit, whatever the extenuating circumstances, the market for a £3,000 MM bass even in normal market conditions is small. In the middle of a pandemic with no-one gigging it’s going to be incredibly small 

[drTStingray]

13 minutes ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

@drTStingray - Would love to get the HH in Burnt Apple for the old price. Unfortunately, the only HH model that Andertons is showing for £2,199 (jet black) is out of stock. The new H models now start at £2,749, several are listed for £2,899 and one at £2,999. Therefore, the HH version in the new colours (in my case Raspberry Burst) will cost at least £100 more than that (i.e., £2849-£3,099). So, find me the HH in Burnt Apple for the old price (£2,199 or £2,299, that's what the now "old" HH models go for) here in the UK and I'll buy it tomorrow!  Looking forward to hearing from you 😎

It's worth asking them if they can get one for you (there may be others in the system in the UK). Whilst not an answer for the price of the latest basses I do know that several UK shops had one each of the Champagne sparkle BFR models - there was a range of around £300 in the prices dependent on which shop you bought from - so maybe the retail mark up chosen is a factor as well? 

As I said before, it will be interesting to see Thomann's prices. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by drTStingray

[Ian McFly]

6 hours ago, drTStingray said:

 

The other thing, I'm just curious why, given Andertons seem to be selling older stock of discontinued colours at prices lower than some of us paid 2+ years ago, some of the people moaning about profiteering and the like (in my opinion completely ignoring a raft of facts) haven't rushed out to snap up these relative bargains? Very curious 🤔😬

In my personal situation, I was planning on buying one end of 2021... Got other things to pay for first, and need to save more. Hence why I can't snag one of these now. And why I was upset at the price increase. 

Anyway I've moved on, and I'll be spending my money on a custom bass instead... for much cheaper.

[martthebass]

4 hours ago, drTStingray said:

I think the starry nights were pre Stingray Special? The specials are quoted to be at least 1lb lighter than the earlier design, as a result of lightweight tuners and other hardware as well as lightweight swamp ash bodies (until about a year ago for the ash). I don't think I was particularly lucky but my SR4HH and SR5HH specials are around 8lb or slightly under. 

Whilst sub 8lb earlier Stingrays certainly exist they're more likely to be around 9.5 lbs or slightly more. 

Yes they were about a year earlier I think. The point I was trying to make though, hardware design aside, is that the swamp ash on the SNs wasn’t particularly lightweight. So did they specially select  lightweight for the specials and now that they cannot source this the specials are now a bit less special (but more expensive)?

[Kiwi]

8 hours ago, Kev said:

Yeah, sorry that's what I mean by lower grade, and wood with less attractive grain is almost always cheaper to buy, and therefore use.

Prices will vary according to species too based on demand and supply.  But within a single species,  there's a lot of variation. 

Manufacturers either buy seasoned stock in bulk and grade the wood themselves, or they will buy a tree and have it milled themselves and then season it in house.  For specific requirements they turn up to a sawmill and go through a woodpile themselves. 

EB,  Dingwall and maybe Fender for timbre specific models will grade a single species according to weight as well as appearance.  Fender will generally find a use for all the grades of wood depending on the price points of each model.  For example, ash of a particular weight and appearance might go into a Marcus Miller model.  It seems like EB are starting to do the same thing.  So yes cheaper wood in cheaper models but it's not down to the purchase price so much as they're using more of what's available... there's less waste. 

Also it's worth remembering that a lot of eq filtering can be achieved with the electronics these days as well.  

[Musicman20]

So what select hardwoods are they using now? 

I'm happy I don't need to buy one at the moment. 

[Musicman20]

Confirmation of prices here

https://bassdirect.co.uk/bass_guitar_specialists/Musicman_stock.html

 

[Ian McFly]

£2899 and £2999 for the models I was interested in... it’ll be a hard pass for me!

[AndyTravis]

I think the attraction with musicman as a company was that you could pretty much order what you wanted at a much better deal than say Fender - if you want a Precision Bass with a matching headstock in one of 30 colours, you have to go custom shop and £3000+

Musicman were always a bit more expensive than Fender but you got that choice (think matching headstock was £120 more)

Now, they’re fender CS prices in some really odd (some are nice) colour choices - and they’re fixed options...

So...I won’t buy new MM again - and I have had about 4 new ones as well as 3 or 4 used 

[Ian McFly]

If you live in the US, Fender offers the Pro Mod service. Basically an American Std P or J with a choice of colour, neck wood and pickups... much cheaper than a Stingray, even imported (if you can find someone in the US to order it for you). 
 

Different animals though 

[AndyTravis]

Just now, Ian McFly said:

If you live in the US, Fender offers the Pro Mod service. Basically an American Std P or J with a choice of colour, neck wood and pickups... much cheaper than a Stingray, even imported (if you can find someone in the US to order it for you). 
 

Different animals though 

Yeah, we never got that option 

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

2 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

I think the attraction with musicman as a company was that you could pretty much order what you wanted at a much better deal than say Fender....

Mmm, I have had conversations with them that proved otherwise. I knew exactly what I wanted and they refused.

The customer isn’t always right apparently.

[Ian McFly]

Unless you’re a “friend” of the company or an artist with decent exposure, you won’t get anything custom from MM. 

 

If you’re a famous YouTuber like Fluff and got friends at MM, you can get a Stingray guitar with a unique finish. Or if you play bass for a band like Neck Deep, you can have a pink Sterling. 
Otherwise, you have to pay an extortionate price for a standard instrument. 

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

3 minutes ago, Ian McFly said:

Unless you’re a “friend” of the company or an artist with decent exposure, you won’t get anything custom from MM. 

 

If you’re a famous YouTuber like Fluff and got friends at MM, you can get a Stingray guitar with a unique finish. Or if you play bass for a band like Neck Deep, you can have a pink Sterling. 
Otherwise, you have to pay an extortionate price for a standard instrument. 

The stupid thing, I didn’t want a custom finish. I wanted to order a bass with options they did provide, but not on the same bass. No build code = no bass. Told them what I thought and went elsewhere.

[Eldon Tyrell]

21 minutes ago, Ian McFly said:

£2899 and £2999 for the models I was interested in... it’ll be a hard pass for me!

£2999 for the HH in the Raspberry Burst? Well, in best Dragon's Den manner: "I am out" 😎 

Still waiting for Thomann to tell what they are going to charge. However, I doubt their prices will be closer to the US ones (only $100-200 more). Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed.