New EBMM Stingray Special Colours and Prices

[ped]

13 minutes ago, 40hz said:

Entire Ball

😂

[Ian McFly]

Good shout mentioning Warwick. I've had 4 Custom Warwicks in the past (as in 10+ years ago), when they were affordable (-ish). Since then, prices have become absolutely ridiculous, and I genuinely wonder how they manage to survive as a company. I NEVER see any famous bands play Warwicks anymore... 

[40hz]

8 minutes ago, ped said:

😂

FFS. This bloody autocorrect! very much edited now 😂

[4000]

1 minute ago, Ian McFly said:

Good shout mentioning Warwick. I've had 4 Custom Warwicks in the past (as in 10+ years ago), when they were affordable (-ish). Since then, prices have become absolutely ridiculous, and I genuinely wonder how they manage to survive as a company. I NEVER see any famous bands play Warwicks anymore... 

I’ve wondered this too. However well made they are these days, they seem to be priced well out of the market they’re catering for. Obviously we’re missing something!

[Ian McFly]

Like this

https://www.thomann.de/gb/warwick_masterbuilt_streamer_stageii_4.htm

Not even a custom shop bass... and that's without VAT!

[40hz]

10 minutes ago, Ian McFly said:

Good shout mentioning Warwick. I've had 4 Custom Warwicks in the past (as in 10+ years ago), when they were affordable (-ish). Since then, prices have become absolutely ridiculous, and I genuinely wonder how they manage to survive as a company. I NEVER see any famous bands play Warwicks anymore... 

Warwick and Musicman are my favourite bass brands, which is frustrating. I enquired with Warwick Custom shop about having a Stuart Zender Iroquai Streamer made. Was quoted £10,000. Absolute and utter insanity (you might even say Virtual Insanity). 

I quietly closed that email.

Edited January 20, 2021 by 40hz

[LukeFRC]

22 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

Striking juxtaposition of prices

 

that is insane. You could buy a very nice bass from Overwater, ACG or someone like that for £3k. 
( @AndyTravis could afford a wee bit under half a Wal for that) 

[AndyTravis]

16 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

that is insane. You could buy a very nice bass from Overwater, ACG or someone like that for £3k. 
( @AndyTravis could afford a wee bit under half a Wal for that) 

I’ve wee’d a bit under less than half a Wal for £3k

what? Hahah.

stingrays in my head are a £1000 bass.

A precision should be about £800

anyhow, what do I know...

[Ian McFly]

1 hour ago, 40hz said:

Warwick and Musicman are my favourite bass brands, which is frustrating. I enquired with Warwick Custom shop about having a Stuart Zender Iroquai Streamer made. Was quoted £10,000. Absolute and utter insanity (you might even say Virtual Insanity). 

I quietly closed that email.

If you’re talking about the multi-coloured Iroquai bass, one of my best mates back home had one made... stunning bass, but it cost him something like 6000€ ten years ago.... paint job was amazing though (but not perfect, some details were a bit meh). 

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Ian McFly said:

Like this

https://www.thomann.de/gb/warwick_masterbuilt_streamer_stageii_4.htm

Not even a custom shop bass... and that's without VAT!

Great example though of how insane Ernie ball prices are.  That bass, by construction type, materials used, almost every level of craftsmanship is hugely superior to a bloody stingray, and it isn’t that far off anymore, although admittedly VAT does carry it away a bit.  For the record, all Masterbuilt instruments like this one are from the “Custom Shop” so to speak, absolute top end Warwicks, and only about 250 built a year, may be less as I think they’ve further ranked up teambuilt and down masterbuilt over the years.

Being the owner of a 2017 Warwick that cost over £4K new (love me a bit of 2nd hand buying...) I can say it is an exceptional instrument, the woods used and construction is just flawless and so damn classy, a million miles from the Warwicks just over a decade ago, and, although taste has a huge bit to do with it, the fact that Ernie Ball are selling instruments approaching that price bracket is just, well, entirely bonkers.  They’re mass produced!!!

[40hz]

38 minutes ago, Ian McFly said:

If you’re talking about the multi-coloured Iroquai bass, one of my best mates back home had one made... stunning bass, but it cost him something like 6000€ ten years ago.... paint job was amazing though (but not perfect, some details were a bit meh). 

That's the one! If I just buy a secondhand Streamer Stage 2 and have the work done myself, you'd be talking around £3500 all in. This is the plan!

[Eldon Tyrell]

Well, another retailer quoted me £2,899 for the 4HH in the new Raspberry Burst finish. Looks like it is not only Andertons alone having these ridiculous prices. Hope to find out from S&T what is going on here.  

[drTStingray]

9 minutes ago, Kev said:

 

....... the fact that Ernie Ball are selling instruments approaching that price bracket is just, well, entirely bonkers.  They’re mass produced!!!

This has to be fact checked as it's wrong. The level of human input is on a par with a Fender team built Custom Shop (though arguably the EBMM result is a far better instrument). 

I don't understand why people are comparing prices of new instruments 20+ yrs ago!! 😂 

The two side by side instruments being shown are also somewhat of a misnomer - one is a pre Brexit instrument in a standard solid colour at a reduced price (January sale?). The other is a brand new post Brexit one is a sparkle colour (Mark up price) with a matching headstock (another price mark up). 

Come on guys, yes they're expensive but this is GCSE O level fail analysis and comparison!!! 

[Eldon Tyrell]

2 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

This has to be fact checked as it's wrong. The level of human input is on a par with a Fender team built Custom Shop (though arguably the EBMM result is a far better instrument). 

I don't understand why people are comparing prices of new instruments 20+ yrs ago!! 😂 

The two side by side instruments being shown are also somewhat of a misnomer - one is a pre Brexit instrument in a standard solid colour at a reduced price (January sale?). The other is a brand new post Brexit one is a sparkle colour (Mark up price) with a matching headstock (another price mark up). 

Come on guys, yes they're expensive but this is GCSE O level fail analysis and comparison!!! 

Yes, the quality is great and I have some and want some more. However, the previous finishes cost £1,899-£2,099 for the 4H, (there is a great screenshot from Andertons website on the second page of this thread) and now the cheapest is £2,749, followed by £2,899 and £2,999 (all 4H). Interestingly, the price increase in the US was only £100-200. So, what's going on here (literally here - in the UK)?!?

[Kev]

32 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

This has to be fact checked as it's wrong. The level of human input is on a par with a Fender team built Custom Shop (though arguably the EBMM result is a far better instrument). 

I don't understand why people are comparing prices of new instruments 20+ yrs ago!! 😂 

The two side by side instruments being shown are also somewhat of a misnomer - one is a pre Brexit instrument in a standard solid colour at a reduced price (January sale?). The other is a brand new post Brexit one is a sparkle colour (Mark up price) with a matching headstock (another price mark up). 

Come on guys, yes they're expensive but this is GCSE O level fail analysis and comparison!!! 

Do you know how many Stingrays are produced a year? I don’t know admittedly, I am assuming, but these have always been production basses built at mass.  If that’s changed, then fair enough, but I wonder how many?

Okay, fully back on topic again, in a calendar year, it appears they have raised the price by a very significant amount.  Brexit should be unrelated as we trade with the US under the same terms as they trade with the EU. The only thing damaged is the £, and it hasn’t changed that much since last year. Why have they done this?? Or is it not then, is it someone else in the chain pocketing the money?

[Ian McFly]

Fact is, EBMM won’t get my money (boohoo haha), I was super keen to get a Stingray Special 4HH as I want a GOOD, solid 4 string for years to come (I already have that in 5 string with my Maruszczyk, but my two 4 strings are “ok” basses, not fantastic quality). 
 

Now, I refuse to spend 2800+ for a Stingray. Heck, I paid £1400 (instead of £1800) for a brand new Sterling 4H (the US one) back in 2016... well, my friend works for a music shop in the UK so got me a good deal, but still... we’re talking double the price now! (Why on earth did I sell that Sterling?!  )

Anyway, moving on from the Stingray realm and sound, I’ll get back to what I love the most, in the bass world: Jazz-like basses. 
 

I’m either gonna get Nino Valenti to build me a nice 4-string Jazz, that would still be way cheaper (even with shipping and taxes) than an EBMM and I get to choose my specs.

Or, if money’s a bit more difficult, maybe another Maruszczyk, this time as a 4-string Jazz (love my 5-string Jazz from them)  

 

[Kiwi]

On 18/01/2021 at 21:27, Eldon Tyrell said:

I actually saw them already some time ago but only post them now as they are officially "in the open" (EBMM's virtual booth at the NAMM - Believe in Music event):

 

I'm waiting for a special edition 'Landlord Magnolia'.   Repainted about twenty times in multiple shades of heavily chipped cream emulsion, complete with authentic brush strokes, cat hair and cigarette ash and a random assortment of screws in various sizes and shapes holding pieces of hardware on.

 

8 hours ago, drTStingray said:

I don't understand why people are comparing prices of new instruments 20+ yrs ago!! 😂 

Because: 

1) The asking price doesn't reflect the actual cost of making them any more than a Louis Vuitton handbag  price tag is justified in the cost of a bit of printed leather, some polyester lining, some chinese made faux gold hardware and about half an hour of labour.
2) The asking price doesn't reflect inflation. 
3) They get to charge more for their mid-level instruments because they have turned their previous mid range instruments into halo models. 

The only justification for increasing the prices is because they want to and they are going to continue raising prices until they see a significant drop off in sales.  And when that happens, it doesn't really matter because most of the brand-related interest will then focus on the mid level instruments where they'll be arguably making more money anyway because they're cheaper to produce.  I think they don't care about a small number of people complaining about prices.  If a small number of people DIDN'T complain, it would suggest they're not charging enough. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, drTStingray said:

This has to be fact checked as it's wrong. The level of human input is on a par with a Fender team built Custom Shop (though arguably the EBMM result is a far better instrument). 

I don't understand why people are comparing prices of new instruments 20+ yrs ago!! 😂 

The two side by side instruments being shown are also somewhat of a misnomer - one is a pre Brexit instrument in a standard solid colour at a reduced price (January sale?). The other is a brand new post Brexit one is a sparkle colour (Mark up price) with a matching headstock (another price mark up). 

Come on guys, yes they're expensive but this is GCSE O level fail analysis and comparison!!! 

They’re factory built instruments made to a basic design that apart from a few tweaks hasn’t really changed in 30 years, which is why people are comparing prices (and used prices are still around the £800-1000 mark for a US model). I’ve recently had a 2020 special (it was returned as I really didn’t like the changes to the tone) and it was well made but it’s no boutique custom build.

The side by side comparison is valid when you compare the current std colour black models - £1999 vs £2899. It’s not a Christmas discount - Andertons even had the aqua sparkle 5 HH at the same price months ago. It’s an identical bass (aside from hardware colour) at a 45% markup.

The cold hard facts are no customisation options at all, no fretless or left hand (unless they’re not advertising them on their site and are available as a custom order, because I’ve not seen one in a shop for a long time) and a reduced set of (IMHO) not very nice colours for a massive price increase. I think that fits the description of mass produced, even if they are hand finished. 
 

 

[Kiwi]

I forgot to mention the impact on second hand instruments as well.  Watch those climb in the same way they did for Warwick and (perhaps more understandably) Wal. 

It's about adding something extra to a bass worth $100 and then charging $700 for it because the marketing have found a way to create mythology for the difference...roasted necks, for example.

In other market sectors, used cars or financial products, there are laws against misleading claims...but it's not relevant to any market sector, like guitars, that has mythology to fall back on.  The marketing department can spin a story that evokes a sense of living your dream...or anything else that can translate into bragging rights (e.g. limited edition colours) without making a single claim about tangible (and therefore actionable) benefits and there we go.

[pineweasel]

Digging around a bit, it appears that the import duty for guitars has actually gone down from the EU rate of 3.2% to the new UK rate of 2%. So Brexit is no excuse at all. 

See example 2 here https://www.accountingweb.co.uk/tax/personal-tax/brace-for-brexit-3-import-duty-and-commodity-codes

[Munurmunuh]

Some extremely rough, rounded up all the way figures.

The new Snowy White Special 4 H is on sale in the US for $2,500.

Add on $400 for a fast courier: $2900

Convert to GBP: £2115

Add 3% for currency exchange: £2180

Add 2% duty: £2225

Add 20% VAT: £2670

So the Andertons Customer Service experience is costing £300+

Taking the slower, USPS -> Royal Mail route would knock about £200 off that. 

[LukeFRC]

8 hours ago, Eldon Tyrell said:

I don't understand why people are comparing prices of new instruments 20+ yrs ago!! 😂

Because the product essentially hasn’t changed.  A US Fender Precision Or Jazz, A musicman stingray and a USA G&L L1000 are all roughly similar “standard” models of the brand of broadly similar To produce instruments all designed by the same fella

so if 20 years back a USA was 80% of the price of a Stingray at 100% (£800 and £1000)

Andertons are selling the equivalent “American Proffessional 2” series for about £1600 - so the price has doubled in the last twenty years - musicman, up to last year, Seems to be, roughly double at £2000-2100 ish 
so a jump to £3000 in one year has to have you asking what the craic is. 
(For completion G&L CLS series L2000 is £1600)
so of course it makes sense to compare prices- the one caveat is that maybe Fender are sticking their prices up 40% as well and we just don’t know it yet!

 

[LeftyJ]

39 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

They’re factory built instruments made to a basic design

To be fair, so is a "Teambuilt", and even a "Masterbuilt", Warwick: they're CNC-routed, in standardised shapes with run-off-the-mill hardware and electronics. Of course there's a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of manual labour still goes into the fit and finish of each instrument. But in my opinion it really doesn't justify why they're so wickedly expensive. That Streamer Stage II posted above is to die for, but 4000 pounds? And this one is over 7000! 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, LeftyJ said:

To be fair, so is a "Teambuilt", and even a "Masterbuilt", Warwick: they're CNC-routed, in standardised shapes with run-off-the-mill hardware and electronics. Of course there's a lot of attention to detail, and a lot of manual labour still goes into the fit and finish of each instrument. But in my opinion it really doesn't justify why they're so wickedly expensive. That Streamer Stage II posted above is to die for, but 4000 pounds? And this one is over 7000! 

I don’t disagree. In fact I’d compare MM to Warwick in this regard - but with the crucial difference that (and this goes for the Fender Custom Shop too) for Masterbuilt there are a staggering array of options available - dozens of woods, neck profiles, finishes, hardware and electronics that must cost a pretty penny to design/source/keep some in stock. Having seen and played a few of the newer custom Warwick’s I do believe the standard of finish is a cut above - but still doesn’t justify the sky-high prices. The Teambuilt models come in mostly sub-£2K, which isn’t great but at least a bit more realistic.

With MM it’s really no different to (for example) a std US Fender - a few set colour and fingerboard options, and that’s it.

It is however also relevant to say that the prices have not gone up anywhere near as much in the US, so it may well be little to do with MM directly, but whatever the reason they’re just not worth £3K. However it seems £2K is kind of the going rate for a deluxe Fender and even a Chinese-made Dingwall is around £2K, it makes the used market even more attractive.

I also question whether used prices will go up that much - maybe the later Specials, but an older model is what it always was - around £1K, maybe a bit more for a special or limited edition, so I can’t see many buyers wanting to pay more just because the latest ones have shot up in price. And there are so many used Stingrays around, it’s not as if we’re not spoiled for choice.

[Ian McFly]

Ok, so it's not to do with Brexit as apparently the import duty has gone down.

Also, the dollar/pound change rate has changed in a year... but not the way it should to explain that increase. Indeed, a year ago, a $2200 Stingray would be £1692 (I know, it's not how it works but all I'm doing here is a simple rate calculation).

Now, January 2021, the same $2200 Stingray should be £1605. So prices shouldn't have gone up in that regard. 

 

BUT, let's take into consideration the US price increase. OK, so let's take the exact same model:

 

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StRay4HESC--ernie-ball-music-man-stingray-special-bass-guitar-smoked-chrome-with-ebony-fingerboard

 

https://www.andertons.co.uk/music-man-stingray-special-smoked-chrome-roasted-maple-ebony-black-headstock-black-pg-black-hardware

 

If you take the american price, $2,399, it translates to £1,750. It is actually sold £2,899 !!!

Yes, I understand you've got to add import taxes, shipping, etc.... but still! That's a staggering difference. And I also know that most USA states add their own tax on top of the price so it's not an actual reflection, but that changes from state to state, plus some states don't even have a tax on goods....

 

Anyways, I'm just stunned....