RCF M18

[Phil Starr]

is this a viable alternative to the behringer XR18? Any pro's or Con's? Anybody used one?

We're a 4 piece band playing smallish venues ( in normal times) mainly pubs. Guitar, bass and drums with three vocals. QSC K12's for mains and a mix of in ears and floor monitors. We rarely if ever have a sound engineer. The mixer will be mine but I'm unlikely to play in anything bigger than a 5-piece band so a bit of redundancy on channels might be nice but eight mic channels is probably just enough for the foreseeable. At the moment drums are rarely miked and if so it tends to be just the kick. 

[EBS_freak]

10 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

is this a viable alternative to the behringer XR18? Any pro's or Con's? Anybody used one?

We're a 4 piece band playing smallish venues ( in normal times) mainly pubs. Guitar, bass and drums with three vocals. QSC K12's for mains and a mix of in ears and floor monitors. We rarely if ever have a sound engineer. The mixer will be mine but I'm unlikely to play in anything bigger than a 5-piece band so a bit of redundancy on channels might be nice but eight mic channels is probably just enough for the foreseeable. At the moment drums are rarely miked and if so it tends to be just the kick. 

It's a great piece of kit and certainly more than capable. The key differentiator though, is if you are looking at doing multi track recording for mixing post gig. The XR18 will, the M18 won't (M18 will record only the L/R to USB).

[JohnDaBass]

That looks really good. Looking forward to seeing the feedback. XR12 works great for one of my bands but always interested in new kit reviews. 

[Phil Starr]

 I've found a review if anyone else is having the same thoughts.

Bullet points are The RCF is 'flawless', the router works, the app is really well executed and the learning curve is simple and short. It sounds great.

The Behringer offers so much more in terms of flexibility, the app is glitchy but not catastrophically so and the learning curve is steep, but no more than other digital mixers. The router is awful to the point of unusability.

Behringer XR18 vs RCF M18 Digital Mixers - YouTube

also this Digital Mixer Showdown : RCF M18 v Behringer XR18 review - Which should you buy ? Soundcraft Ui24r - YouTube

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Phil Starr

[Jakester]

I have the XR18, and got a lot of good setup advice off here. As you say, it was a jolly steep learning curve but once you get to know your way around it, it's been good. There are aftermarket apps for the Behringer which go some way to dealing with the issues of the manufacturer one. 

I've been using it recently as an audio interface at home for drum recording and it's been great. The multitrack recording (plus the great price I got it for) was the persuader for me. 

[M@23]

Used one for a couple of years, can’t fault it. The mix app is good too

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

It's a great piece of kit and certainly more than capable. The key differentiator though, is if you are looking at doing multi track recording for mixing post gig. The XR18 will, the M18 won't (M18 will record only the L/R to USB).

Yeah, as ever i want all the features for the same price

The biggest attractions of the RCF are a router that works and the simplicity. I'm going to be playing bass if I need to tweak it and set up times are important too. a simple screen, large sliders and the ability to tap the screen for a 1dB change in the channel volume looks really enticing. If anyone else needs to touch it then again simplicity is king. 

Multi track recording is something which would be great to have though and 8 mic channels leaves nothing to spare unless I use a separate drum mixer. That's OK but then I'm in the same position as using an external router with extra boxes and cables. 18mics versus 8 is a huge difference.

With your help I'd settled on the Behringer just before COVID struck. Now I can see limited gigging (outdoors probably, but we do a lot of that) it makes sense to purchase again and learn to drive it before we start gigging. The MR18 looks made for our band and isn't expensive, I think I'm struggling with heart v's head. I can see me ending up with both or having to upgrade in a year or two. 

[Phil Starr]

2 minutes ago, M@23 said:

Used one for a couple of years, can’t fault it. The mix app is good too

Which one ?

 

[M@23]

7 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Which one ?

 

Sorry, M18. It’s been a game changer and way cheaper than the analogue alternative to get that many aux. We use the internal router and have never had any issues. 

[EBS_freak]

I know it's probably a bit of a disruptive inclusion to this thread - but if you are looking at keeping it simple, you may want to look at the Zoom LiveTrak stuff. It's like a bridge between an analogue and all out faderless digital solution. All mixed from the desk, so no apps or wifi involved.

Full disclosure, I'm shielding and not had any opportunity to see one in the flesh so can't vouch how good they are but it does give you the familiar analogue feel, with 5 auxes (but these are all for IEMs primarily but Im sure you could hook a monitor up - but I'm pretty sure there is not the ability to put a 31 band EQ across them (or the mains) for notching out frequencies), multitrack to SD and will also serve as an interface. Also got some DSP - probably not as comprehensive as the RCF or Behringer... but having said that, I would say the VAST majority of RCF and Behringer users don't make use of the DSP they have available to them anyway.

Anyway, I think it's pretty cool and bridges the gap for people scared of losing physical faders.

https://zoomcorp.com/en/gb/digital-mixer-multi-track-recorders/digital-mixer-recorder/livetrak-l-12/

https://zoomcorp.com/media/documents/Zoom_LiveTrak_L-12_OperationManual_English.pdf.pdf

Edited January 20, 2021 by EBS_freak

[Phil Starr]

 I'd spotted the Zoom Livetrack-20 and it was on my list but it's a pricy solution for my bands needs, thomann are listing the L-12 for £400 which is well within budget but of course who knows what we will be paying with duties added. that's an attractive proposition though. I'm pretty ham fisted with touch screens so physical sliders are definitely a big bonus. I had considered the x32 but the physical size and cost had put me off. I've kind of set a £500 target unless there is very good reason to go bigger. 

Thanks so much, that's a nice thing and so Zoom, it's a big step forward from their old 8 channel recorders. I've been through the manual and also looked back at the L-20 which has a few more features. I think for me it's just a little too limited. The eq and other shaping on the individual channels is pretty restricted and it's still only 8 mic channels. There's also no chance for the rest of the band to do their own monitor mixes. I love the simplicity and the analogue like nature of the controls. It'd be perfect for a lot of bands, but not for me.

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Phil Starr

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, M@23 said:

Sorry, M18. It’s been a game changer and way cheaper than the analogue alternative to get that many aux. We use the internal router and have never had any issues. 

Yeah the router is what's putting me off the Behringer. It's the sort of stupid short cut that would bug me even if the solution is cheap and obvious. I love things that are well designed and just work, and am stupidly irritated by a foolish short cut. 

The question is how irritated I'd be if I move on and want to mic up the drums or want to do some live recording.  

[EBS_freak]

I shouldn't let the router put you off too much. It's an annoyance agreed, but there's loads of tiny little 2.4/5ghz routers you can just velcro to the side, or if you get a little rack case, can put in with the XR18 itself... (but appreciate the rack may be something you want to avoid given the additional size and bulk it gives. The other advantage of connecting an external router, is that you can actually get the router aerials off the floor and up to line of sight, meaning you will have a much more robust connection in those more densely populated gigs*.

 

*this may or may not be a problem depending upon your band and Covid!

[Jakester]

Quote

It's an annoyance agreed, but there's loads of tiny little 2.4/5ghz routers you can just velcro to the side, or if you get a little rack case, can put in with the XR18 itself... 

Yep, I just used an old one I had lying around and it's permanently installed in the rack case, so it comes on when the power is switched on, and is plugged into the mixer all the time. If your ISP has given you a new router, you could possibly use the old one - just change the SSID and password (I have it stuck on a label underneath the router in the rack just in case I forget it!) and consider not broadcasting the SSID. 

TBF, I didn't have any problems with the onboard WiFi at home, but given the well documented problems elsewhere I thought I'd prefer not to risk it. 

[JohnDaBass]

23 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I shouldn't let the router put you off too much. It's an annoyance agreed, but there's loads of tiny little 2.4/5ghz routers you can just velcro to the side, or if you get a little rack case, can put in with the XR18 itself... (but appreciate the rack may be something you want to avoid given the additional size and bulk it gives. The other advantage of connecting an external router, is that you can actually get the router aerials off the floor and up to line of sight, meaning you will have a much more robust connection in those more densely populated gigs*.

 

*this may or may not be a problem depending upon your band and Covid!

My XR12 fits neatly into an ABS short (350mm) 19ins rack case. Lots of space for mains leads and repurposed BT Hub router. I really like the simplicity of the RCF M18 but once you have set up each of the channels with the Behringer at rehearsals you only need minor tweaks at each venue. In hindsight I think I would have gone for the XR18, but the XR12 is absolutely fine for our current needs. 

[Silky999]

I run an XR18 for our 4 piece. I looked at the RCF and XR16 but wanted to futureproof. I got mine pre-owned for £250 so couldn’t pass the offer up really. I would like to get an X32 eventually but they are £££ even pre-owned. I have a router permenantly attached and a laptop hardwired to that. I also have a long Ethernet cable so that if we (rarely) have someone to do the sound, they can move the laptop wherever. Do not trust the built in router!
I wanted the ability to USB out all the channels as I want to be able to record and mix our own tracks via a laptop. The routing options are immense and being able to set up all the levels and mixes to IEMS at a practice, save them and use at a gig is brilliant. You can just tweak the levels and EQ for different venues and if you play the same venue regularity, there’s the option of saving it as a preset. Downside is also the sheer amount of functionality as there is a steep learning curve as others have said.

All the key stuff is done via the laptop and then tweaks to volume can be done on the fly via my phone. It’s all mounted in a small wheeled flight case. I am going to get some ventilated blanking panels to tidy up the flight case and hide wires etc.

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Silky999

[EBS_freak]

Not really erring on the side of portability though! 😛

[Phil Starr]

On 20/01/2021 at 23:57, EBS_freak said:

Not really erring on the side of portability though! 😛

Wait until he adds the x32

We did get some great sounds out of a borrowed X32 though

[Silky999]

Portable!? It’s wheelable lol

[mike257]

The RCF mixers in this range are really short on mic inputs and that just makes them a non starter for me. I honestly don't think you can best the XR18 for the price. 

I have an Allen & Heath SQ5 in my own stock, and regularly tour with Digico and Midas consoles, but for little "chuck it in the back of the car" gigs the XR is a great solution. 

I've got mine in a shallow rack case, and I've drilled out the rack ears and fitted a Powercon input and link out to chain to other kit, and a 13a socket to charge a tablet that I leave a USB plug in. I've got a little TPlink mini router velcroed in the back, and the rack lid has a zip compartment where the tablet and cables live. Everything in one small light box and a great portable solution for recording too. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by mike257

[EBS_freak]

Looks great @mike257 - I built a very similar looking rig for a mate, including the rigging of power and USB on the front. The XR18 still remains my favourite little digital mixer. Really hard to beat for the money.

[M@23]

@mike257 that’s a good point. I love the M18, but you’re right on the mic inputs. We have a very small setup and run 2 x Helix, TD50 and SPD and 3 x vocal mics, so it’s great for us. 

[mike257]

Just now, M@23 said:

@mike257 that’s a good point. I love the M18, but you’re right on the mic inputs. We have a very small setup and run 2 x Helix, TD50 and SPD and 3 x vocal mics, so it’s great for us. 

Yeah, if it's just for one specific band and it ticks your boxes, then it's all good. 

In a more traditional band setup or with a bigger group, it'd get restrictive pretty quickly. I run a small production company so mine has to be flexible - goes out (or did do!) on all sorts of small gigs, function bands, corporate events, and I've even been able to squeeze a 10 piece soul band through it without too much fuss. 

[BCH]

Hi, we have been using 2 M18's since they launched...one: live (50+gigs), see pic.

second: permanently in the rehearsal room ( the only difference is the IEM's are replaced with a 8ch headphone amp rack)...we think they are excellent, sound, UI, reliability...as the many comments...and great value...we are currently trying the M20X...arrived this morning...so far ...wow

[P-T-P]

Bit late to this thread but may help someone.

Been gigging with the m18 for the past 2 or 3 years. We replaced our Mackie DL1608 with it.

We all love it. The apps work a treat and with a little patience it does a heck of a lot for a really great price in a small package. The ability to have 6 aux mixes makes running individual iems super easy.

The amp and fx modelling mean me (bass) and singer (second guitar) haven’t brought an amp to a gig in years and the lead guitarist just brings his helix.

Depending on the line-up, we run two or three vocal mics. Most gigs we just mic the kick and use an overhead for the drums but we could add additional mics to the kit if needed.

If you need more mic inputs, you’d possibly need a small sub mixer. As we bring no back line , for back-up purposes we bring a second m18 and I know that we could use that as a slave to increase the inputs.

Honestly, I think it’s an astonishingly good bit of kit for any small giggling band.