6” driver recommendations/suggestions?

[Bass Wielder]

8 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Or trying to make a silk purse out of a mouse ear.

This is what we’re trying to avoid....negative vibes via comments. If this offends you or you don’t have a positive response/solution/suggestion...simple. ....stay away. In the niceness way. Cool?

[Bass Wielder]

9 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Ported with a suitable driver might work better with at least 60 watts. With 15 watts it won't. You're in the realm of asking if it's worthwhile to put a set of Dunlop racing tires on an Nissan Qashqai. You may, but it won't go any faster.

Gotcha and understood. Maybe so but the ride may improve....

[Phil Starr]

OK it looks like we have a fun lockdown project to find how far the envelope can be pushed. Having had a lot of fun with my version I've ended up with a usable practice amp in a tiny practical box with very little effort. Actually it's better than that; it's good enough that I can get enough volume from my electric bass to do what other people do with double bass, play with other acoustic instruments and singers.

That Beyma is just slightly better than the Fane  6-100 that I used too. I had the Fane kicking around from another project so I didn't have to spend anything which was a bonus but £33 for a weekends entertainment and the possibility of something satisfying to play with your family sounds like it's worth a try.

[stevie]

Allow me to summarise how I see this, as the OP seems to be getting conflicting advice (this is Basschat, after all).

First, it's true as others have said that you'll struggle to achieve volume from 15W with a 6" driver in a small cab. I'm not saying it's impossible, but this is what you need to do to make the most of what you've got.

1. Port the cab. A reflex cabinet is by definition more efficient than a sealed cab because it uses the energy from the back of the cone that is absorbed in a sealed system. This will allow you to use a more sensitive (i.e. louder) driver that would be too bass light in a sealed box.

2. Choose a 4-ohm driver. This will make the most of your limited amp power and give you another 3dB for free, at least in theory.

3. Always place your cab close to a wall, possibly even in a corner. This will give you another few dB at low frequencies, where you'll need it most.

If you do all these, you have a fighting chance. To help you choose your new driver and calculate the port, please measure the internal dimensions of your cab and perhaps post some photos. There are people in this thread who can help you with porting. I'd also suggest you listen to Phil, as he has some recent experience of using a 6" driver and he knows what he's doing.

[Beer of the Bass]

When I was at uni I used to rehearse with a jazzy drummer with a little Trace Elliot Boxer 15 1x8" combo. It wasn't the deepest bass but it wasn't breaking up either. So if the situation and other musicians are sympathetic to it, you might get something of use at least.

[casapete]

2 hours ago, stevie said:

Allow me to summarise how I see this, as the OP seems to be getting conflicting advice (this is Basschat, after all).

First, it's true as others have said that you'll struggle to achieve volume from 15W with a 6" driver in a small cab. I'm not saying it's impossible, but this is what you need to do to make the most of what you've got.

1. Port the cab. A reflex cabinet is by definition more efficient than a sealed cab because it uses the energy from the back of the cone that is absorbed in a sealed system. This will allow you to use a more sensitive (i.e. louder) driver that would be too bass light in a sealed box.

2. Choose a 4-ohm driver. This will make the most of your limited amp power and give you another 3dB for free, at least in theory.

3. Always place your cab close to a wall, possibly even in a corner. This will give you another few dB at low frequencies, where you'll need it most.

If you do all these, you have a fighting chance. To help you choose your new driver and calculate the port, please measure the internal dimensions of your cab and perhaps post some photos. There are people in this thread who can help you with porting. I'd also suggest you listen to Phil, as he has some recent experience of using a 6" driver and he knows what he's doing.

Good advice, although regarding point 2 - check whether the amp will run into 4 ohms. With no extension speaker socket there’s a good possibility ( as with many smaller/ budget combos) that it will only run an 8 ohm speaker, which is probably what it had fitted at the factory.

[EBS_freak]

37 minutes ago, casapete said:

Good advice, although regarding point 2 - check whether the amp will run into 4 ohms. With no extension speaker socket there’s a good possibility ( as with many smaller/ budget combos) that it will only run an 8 ohm speaker, which is probably what it had fitted at the factory.

Good call out -

The specs suggest its 4 Ohm safe.

[casapete]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Good call out -

The specs suggest its 4 Ohm safe.

Nice one - I wonder why they quote the 15 watts output @ 4 ohms when they’ve fitted an eight ohm job as standard though, with no means of running it at 4?  Maybe the difference is so negligible.

Come on down Bill!! 

[Bass Wielder]

Good looking upward curve of replies...

Update: the cab is front ported! I took the grill off and was shocked that I did not remember. Apologies (I am an older gentleman👴🏾

I did think of a 4 ohm driver but must admit... I chickened out 🐥! Thanks for the confidence in that.

Hartke combo B150 internal dimensions: 15cm depth x 34cm width x 22.5cm height.

pic added showing my tweeter mod and port.

That redirects the comments/advice/suggestions?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It's better, but the gains by switching to the Beyma would still be minor, as would be going to a 4 ohm driver. The limiting factor here remains the amp.

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, Bass Wielder said:

This is what we’re trying to avoid....negative vibes via comments. If this offends you or you don’t have a positive response/solution/suggestion...simple. ....stay away. In the niceness way. Cool?

Not really. You keep asking a different question to try to find a solution to a problem that has a brick wall answer.

The problem is you don't have enough watts or a big enough box. There is no end run for that.  When Bill starts giving you the Yoda speak you should listen harder. My comment was reinforcement.

You may have absorbed another point that was made earlier. 4 ohm little drivers will tend to be higher power rated tough little bastards that consequently have less sensitivity to power.

From the looks of your box you are stuck with a 6''.

Two ways out of your rabbit hole.

1 give up.

2 compromise.

We have to go back to the problem and redefine it in order to compromise. You wanted too much. Make a small gigging combo out of a tiny practice combo while retaining all the nice practice amp tones and portability? Not possible.

Option 1. Build a new box and put a S2010 in it. Nice sensitive lightweight driver. Still very portable. Make another little box for the amp out of the combo. Strap then together. It's all reversible but you get a useful cab out of it.

 

[Phil Starr]

Hi, I've just run some modelling but this is based on the 9l volume of my cab. The Fane I mentioned and used myself comes out better slightly than the Beyma so if you want to go ahead I'd buy that. The blue is your current speaker in a ported cab and the purple is the same speaker in a sealed cab of the same volume. as you can see they all meet at the higher frequencies but low down the ported cab gives a lot more bass than the sealed cab down to about 70Hz where they cross over. As you can see there is a huge +4dB peak at around 160Hz in the low mids. Your speaker is underdamped (Americans use this term differently I think) and normally this much of a hump would be undesirable distortion. In practice this will be extra volume and a warmer sound which might be the fun factor you like about the way it is set up at the moment. Your speaker models better in a much larger sealed box, you can see the sealed box response is flatter but rolling off at 200Hz isn't any good for a bass player.

For comparison the green response is the Fane, as you can see the volume peak is lower, just under 2db, and at a lower frequency around 110Hz, quite a good place to have a peak for a bass especially if it is bass light. there is also an extra 2db of bass below this point.

All this means is that you have struck lucky with the speaker you have in terms of volume, that huge hump is giving you a lot of extra sound in the low mids. The other speakers will be subjectively quieter.

In terms of sound quality the Fane will sound better for bass guitar.  It has a flatter response and a touch more deep bass below 100Hz, the 2db boost at 110Hz is well controlled and in a nice place to give a subjective impression of real bass. All this is in a 9litre box yours may be a bit different.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Phil Starr

[Downunderwonder]

53 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi, I've just run some modelling but this is based on the 9l volume of my cab. The Fane I mentioned and used myself comes out better slightly than the Beyma so if you want to go ahead I'd buy that. The blue is your current speaker in a ported cab and the purple is the same speaker in a sealed cab of the same volume. as you can see they all meet at the higher frequencies but low down the ported cab gives a lot more bass than the sealed cab down to about 70Hz where they cross over. As you can see there is a huge +4dB peak at around 160Hz in the low mids. Your speaker is underdamped (Americans use this term differently I think) and normally this much of a hump would be undesirable distortion. In practice this will be extra volume and a warmer sound which might be the fun factor you like about the way it is set up at the moment. Your speaker models better in a much larger sealed box, you can see the sealed box response is flatter but rolling off at 200Hz isn't any good for a bass player.

For comparison the green response is the Fane, as you can see the volume peak is lower, just under 2db, and at a lower frequency around 110Hz, quite a good place to have a peak for a bass especially if it is bass light. there is also an extra 2db of bass below this point.

All this means is that you have struck lucky with the speaker you have in terms of volume, that huge hump is giving you a lot of extra sound in the low mids. The other speakers will be subjectively quieter.

In terms of sound quality the Fane will sound better for bass guitar.  It has a flatter response and a touch more deep bass below 100Hz, the 2db boost at 110Hz is well controlled and in a nice place to give a subjective impression of real bass. All this is in a 9litre box yours may be a bit different.

 

It would be interesting to see if the extra couple of litres made any difference. As I read it, the OP being happy with the low mid bumped tone he has, the green curve would make him really unimpressed trading 4dB down in low mids for a 2dB bump up down lower.

[stevie]

I calculated 11 litres - so Phil's graphs won't be that far out. The blue curve is a recipe for one note bass IMO. For a 6" driver, the Fane looks good.

[Phil Starr]

so this is what effect the extra 2litres make. I've tuned the cabs a little lower to give the nearest to flat response you can get with these speakers and the extra cab volume does give more flexibility. I don't mind a coloured cab but for me that peak is a little too big and a little too high with the current speaker. Actually the volume change has moved the peak and the -3db point down roughly 10Hz which is quite nice. The Fane will give quite a grown up tone for such a small speaker, a 4x6 might be quite interesting. However if sheer volume is the thing then there is no point in changing.

If you send me the port dimensions Michael I can optimise them for you.

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Not really. You keep asking a different question to try to find a solution to a problem that has a brick wall answer.

The problem is you don't have enough watts or a big enough box. There is no end run for that.

Have to say, this is the answer. Everyone has tried to be helpful (it is not "negative" to point out the truth), which is that you have a small, very low-powered practice combo which is discontinued and can be had for £50 odd second-hand. Spending money on a replacement driver for it would be a waste. I appreciate that money is tight at the moment, but there's no way around the fact that you would be far better advised to look for something more suited to the job.

There is no alternative, I'm afraid, even if you go the DIY route. There's a useful mantra one can apply - "Small, cheap, high quality. Pick two". If you want something very compact that will do gigs, you need more than 15 watts. There are compact combos out there that will work (the smaller Rumbles that several have recommended, for example). You can spend more, much more, for higher quality - perhaps something like a PJ Bass Cub (there's one - not mine - in the Market Place at the moment). Not a lot more that can be said, really.

[Bass Wielder]

I think some have misconstrued the object of my post.... I won’t waste energy on replies to those...know thyself!🤔

It not that I’m asking too much or silk purse desires or cheapness nonsense etc...it’s simply asking what’s possible. Nuff said on that.

This is how new land is discovered, boundaries stretched, minds broadened, discovering....

Not for the faint of heart or mind....😉

That said, thanks for the continued interest/comments....onwards👍🏽

[Downunderwonder]

You asked what was possible with a driver upgrade. The answer is a shift in tonality with next to no extra volume in the bottom end.

Kicking these kinds of cans around you get to know when a plan has a chance and when it's trying to break the rules. The rules can't be broken. No amount of complaints can change that.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Downunderwonder

[Bass Wielder]

Breaking the rules without complaining the port size is about 4.3cm in diameter 👍🏽

[Dan Dare]

3 hours ago, Bass Wielder said:

It not that I’m asking too much or silk purse desires or cheapness nonsense etc...it’s simply asking what’s possible. Nuff said on that.

This is how new land is discovered, boundaries stretched, minds broadened, discovering...

The answer to "what's possible" is "not a lot". You can't "stretch boundaries" or "discover new lands" with a kid's toy. We'd all love to find something that costs £50 and fits in a pencil case that we could gig with. Not going to happen. Sorry, but that's the reality.

[Bass Wielder]

Dan Dares not I gather...thanks still👍🏽
ps: the mobile phone as you know it developed from a kids toy...

[stevie]

The port size looks all right. Normally, I'd say go bigger - and you do have the space do do it - but 15W isn't going to overload the port.

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Bass Wielder said:

Dan Dares not I gather...thanks still👍🏽
ps: the mobile phone as you know it developed from a kids toy...

It would be more accurate to say the mobile phone was developed from a kids toy (it didn't do so by itself). There is scant, if any, resemblance between the kid's toy and the modern mobile phone and you cannot turn a kid's toy into a mobile phone (which is the equivalent of what you are trying to do). Think of evolution. We and apes share a common ancestor, but an ape cannot become a human being (and we cannot become apes). We are both products of a process that has taken millions of years and neither of us resembles the common ancestor any longer.

Many on here, from ordinary players like me to those who make a living from designing equipment (such as Bill) have tried to give you practical, helpful advice, but you brush it aside and tell us we are "faint of heart and mind". That's fine. Have fun wasting your time and money if you want.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Dan Dare

[EBS_freak]

Yup. You are on a one journey with this cab. Probably not that an exciting one at that.

If you want to have some DIY experiments with cabs, have a look to see if you can shoe horn in another identical speaker behind it and have a play with an isobaric setup for sh1ts and giggles... although I suspect your cab isn't deep enough. At least it will be a talking point then!

Failing that, take it outside and play Uncle Rob.

[Bass Wielder]

See what I mean....here’s me breaking rules again by responding...🤷🏽‍♂️

Dan don’t say ‘we’ man. You didn’t try to help but tried to dissuade....then you attracted the negative EBS company against Hartke. Lol..

look above.... nicely put... simply stay away. Unless you’re bored man..don’t make me break my rules again 😤
 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Bass Wielder