1 x 15 & 2 x 10 in a stack, will there be issues?

[Downunderwonder]

15 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

is that a polite way of saying "everything" @agedhorse?

Everything Subway since he was hired at Mesa. Before that Mesa were apparently quite ok with a bit of a mismatching response between cabs of a line. One cab even had an abysmal mismatch of 410 and 115 in the same box.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

31 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

 

When I was trying to find a rig for both bass & guitar, I found the response curves weren't all that different, & it surprised me a lot that even guitar drivers have a steep roll-off on the high frequencies.

So, what is the difference besides the xMax?

Everything. If you look at response charts for guitar versus bass drivers they both have steep roll offs, but guitar drivers tend to do so above 5kHz, bass drivers above 3kHz. That's mainly because guitar drivers have higher Fs, lower Mms and lower Le.

[Beer of the Bass]

I've tried a couple of different guitar amps through my bass cabs which use the Eminence Beta 12. It would be workable for some styles, but I find them a little "polite" sounding, definitely lacking something at the top end that I hear with almost any guitar driver.

[Killed_by_Death]

 

no trouble getting the high-end out of this rig:

but it was loaded with an aftermarket tweeter & the woofers also get all the frequencies

 

[Cat Burrito]

Just seen this thread. I run my Orange 4x10 with an Orange 1x15. Never had any problems at all. I've changed the head since this photo to the Orange AD200B and it sounds even better.

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, Cat Burrito said:

Just seen this thread. I run my Orange 4x10 with an Orange 1x15. Never had any problems at all. I've changed the head since this photo to the Orange AD200B and it sounds even better.

Only enough watts to keep you happy without straining the 15.

[BigRedX]

To all those bass players who are using two (or more) different cabs in your rig and are relying on this system to project the bass sound into the audience, without any PA support, have you used a wireless system and gone out into the audience area whilst sound checking and listened to how the bas part of the mix changes in both tone and volume in different parts of the venue?

I suspect not. Just because these rigs sound good when you are stood next to them doesn't mean that every audience member is getting the same good sound.

[EBS_freak]

16 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

To all those bass players who are using two (or more) different cabs in your rig and are relying on this system to project the bass sound into the audience, without any PA support, have you used a wireless system and gone out into the audience area whilst sound checking and listened to how the bas part of the mix changes in both tone and volume in different parts of the venue?

I suspect not. Just because these rigs sound good when you are stood next to them doesn't mean that every audience member is getting the same good sound.

Shh.. Don't p1ss on their parade 😜

[Lozz196]

27 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

To all those bass players who are using two (or more) different cabs in your rig and are relying on this system to project the bass sound into the audience, without any PA support, have you used a wireless system and gone out into the audience area whilst sound checking and listened to how the bas part of the mix changes in both tone and volume in different parts of the venue?

I suspect not. Just because these rigs sound good when you are stood next to them doesn't mean that every audience member is getting the same good sound.

I had exactly that moment about 10 years ago, great on stage sound, just the right amount of lows and highs, but when I went out front to check levels it was just a booming mush. I’ve therefore learned that an on stage sound that I find is too trebly & twangy translates to the audience as a well measured bass sound that fits in the mix just right.

Edit - and this was with a single 4x12 cab.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Lozz196

[EBS_freak]

Happens all to often - your ear on stage isn't really well judged to determine what the ears out front will hear. I'll say the same every time... cabs on stage for monitoring, PA for doing the heavy weight lifting.

[LukeFRC]

32 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Happens all to often - your ear on stage isn't really well judged to determine what the ears out front will hear. I'll say the same every time... cabs on stage for monitoring, PA for doing the heavy weight lifting.

No you don't. 






sometimes you mention IEMs  

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

No you don't. 






sometimes you mention IEMs  

Well, that's the preference. But you know, rock n roll n dinosaurs.

[Chienmortbb]

14 hours ago, agedhorse said:

It's not a crap shoot because there are manufacturers who do know what they are doing, and have a well established track record of doing so without issues.

My point was that it is a rap shoot for players to mix cabinets. There are a lot of manufactures that do know what they are doing. 

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I had exactly that moment about 10 years ago, great on stage sound, just the right amount of lows and highs, but when I went out front to check levels it was just a booming mush. I’ve therefore learned that an on stage sound that I find is too trebly & twangy translates to the audience as a well measured bass sound that fits in the mix just right.

Edit - and this was with a single 4x12 cab.

I find the wireless system ideal for that with the added bonus that I don’t fall over so often. 

I go to my local club on a Saturday when not gigging and have given up telling the bassists that the room has a real bottom end boom and they need to back off the bass control. The only one that needed more bass was using a PJB rig. 

[inthedoghouse]

I used a Trace 1x15 with a 2x10 on top for years and it sounded perfectly good to my ears.  It wasn't until I tried replacing the 1x15 with a (TE) 4x10 that I found I preferred that setup, and is what I use now.

Do it; you'll be just fine.

[thodrik]

 I used to have a Trace Elliot 2x10 and 1x15 stack (Peavey era). Generally it sounded fine, though the sound quality wavered from venue to venue. I can't say it was definitely because of the mismatched cabs, but I felt that I got a more consistent sound quality when using the 1x15 by itself and in practice I didn't need a full stack when gigging in a three piece rock band. So I sold the 2x10. 

I have since bought a big Mesa 6x10. The Mesa cab is rated at 900 watts, which is the same combined total 'wattage' of my old Trace stack, but the difference in sound quality is staggering. Though the difference in sound quality might be more to do with the quality of the cab and speakers than the size of the speakers themselves. 

The big Mesa cab was kind of a bucket list purchase as my dream set up from 2008 onwards was one of those and a Big Block 750. I finally got hold of that set up in 2019, but for practical purposes my main gigging set up will continue to be my old Mesa Walkabout 1x15 combo. If I have PA support (which I usually do) I generally don't need more than that. 

[agedhorse]

46 minutes ago, thodrik said:

 I used to have a Trace Elliot 2x10 and 1x15 stack (Peavey era). Generally it sounded fine, though the sound quality wavered from venue to venue. I can't say it was definitely because of the mismatched cabs, but I felt that I got a more consistent sound quality when using the 1x15 by itself and in practice I didn't need a full stack when gigging in a three piece rock band. So I sold the 2x10. 

I have since bought a big Mesa 6x10. The Mesa cab is rated at 900 watts, which is the same combined total 'wattage' of my old Trace stack, but the difference in sound quality is staggering. Though the difference in sound quality might be more to do with the quality of the cab and speakers than the size of the speakers themselves. 

The big Mesa cab was kind of a bucket list purchase as my dream set up from 2008 onwards was one of those and a Big Block 750. I finally got hold of that set up in 2019, but for practical purposes my main gigging set up will continue to be my old Mesa Walkabout 1x15 combo. If I have PA support (which I usually do) I generally don't need more than that. 

Of course the quality of the sound will vary from venue to venue, it will do this even if you have a single cabinet. Each venue has completely different acoustic properties, different absorption coefficients, different boundary conditions, and different combinations of path lengths.

The PA and a (qualified) FOH engineer will take the bass signal off the stage and do what is necessary to work in the acoustic environment of the auditorium which will always be different than what is happening on stage. The better the engineer, the better the translation of the desired stage sound to the audience... and it has to happen in context with the rest of the mix also.

[thodrik]

1 hour ago, agedhorse said:

Of course the quality of the sound will vary from venue to venue, it will do this even if you have a single cabinet. Each venue has completely different acoustic properties, different absorption coefficients, different boundary conditions, and different combinations of path lengths.

The PA and a (qualified) FOH engineer will take the bass signal off the stage and do what is necessary to work in the acoustic environment of the auditorium which will always be different than what is happening on stage. The better the engineer, the better the translation of the desired stage sound to the audience... and it has to happen in context with the rest of the mix also.

Exactly. Most gigs I play are multi-band gigs with 2-3 bands. There just isn’t time in the allotted sound check for every bassist in every band to go out front to check what their individual bass signal sounds like FOH and in all corners of the venue. You just have to know your gear, set up quickly and efficiently and let the sound engineer get on with their job.

[Beer of the Bass]

With the chat about differences between onstage and FoH sound, I do think it's a useful skill to be able to make things work in a modest sized room with just backline and vocal/minimal drum PA.  While there aren't many times that would be the first choice approach, I do feel it's a valuable exercise in dynamics, listening and communication that I've learned some things from doing.

[BassAdder60]

10 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

With the chat about differences between onstage and FoH sound, I do think it's a useful skill to be able to make things work in a modest sized room with just backline and vocal/minimal drum PA.  While there aren't many times that would be the first choice approach, I do feel it's a valuable exercise in dynamics, listening and communication that I've learned some things from doing.

That’s been the method I’ve used in every band I’ve played in

Typical venues with house PA would be 5 in 100 gigs .. typical for U.K. venues in East Anglia 

[agedhorse]

I should have qualified my comment, because the smallest venues I typically work in start at about 1000 seats. A bass player fighting the sound guy in larger venues is absurd because the sound difference out in the house is SO different than what it typically is on stage (especially in proscenium houses).

Also the tools I have in a typical PA are MUCH different (typically) than even the biggest bass rigs. multiple double 18" subs alone completely change the low frequency extension equation. Often a player will want more extension than what their on stage rigs are capable of, so they will boost the low end in an attempt to get more extension, yet all this does is generally muddy things up (especially on stage). The better choice is to allow the PA to do the heavy lifting and concentrate on their stage sound and how the entire band is impacted by it. With a little bit of coordination, often the sub bleed from the PA will fill in the missing lowest octave just fine on stage anyway.

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, agedhorse said:

I should have qualified my comment, because the smallest venues I typically work in start at about 1000 seats. A bass player fighting the sound guy in larger venues is absurd because the sound difference out in the house is SO different than what it typically is on stage (especially in proscenium houses).

Also the tools I have in a typical PA are MUCH different (typically) than even the biggest bass rigs. multiple double 18" subs alone completely change the low frequency extension equation. Often a player will want more extension than what their on stage rigs are capable of, so they will boost the low end in an attempt to get more extension, yet all this does is generally muddy things up (especially on stage). The better choice is to allow the PA to do the heavy lifting and concentrate on their stage sound and how the entire band is impacted by it. With a little bit of coordination, often the sub bleed from the PA will fill in the missing lowest octave just fine on stage anyway.

In those sort of venues you have to trust the sound person. One of the problems we have in here and probably on TB is that we have pros that play to large venues with a good PA and many, the weekend warriors, that play pubs, clubs and bars where PA support is either lacking or insufficient. It is then up to the musician to ensure that his FOH sound is optimum. The worst of all worlds is putting the bass through what is substantially a vocal PA.

 

[lonestar]

On 31/01/2021 at 19:47, Merton said:

I had a Trace Elliot 2x10 and 1x15 stack for a while in the early/mid 2000s. I actually never really got on with it at the time and didn’t understand why until I stumbled across Bassworld and learned the science behind it all. Haven’t mixed drivers since. Find a cab you like and double it if you see more

My experience too Merton.

I had 4x10 + 1x15 stacks for years as that’s what everyone else did. My 2x10 combo on top of a 2x10 cab does it for me these days.

[BigRedX]

13 hours ago, BassAdder27 said:

That’s been the method I’ve used in every band I’ve played in

Typical venues with house PA would be 5 in 100 gigs .. typical for U.K. venues in East Anglia 

I think it very much depends on what kind of band you are in.

Certainly in the last 10 years of playing in originals bands and all over the country (although for some reason never in East Anglia), there has nearly always been a suitable in-house PA that the bass would be put through (that's venues up to 500 capacity). In fact I can't remember the last time I had to rely on my rig for the audience to be able to hear the bass guitar.

[BassAdder60]

You definitely learn how to achieve a good on stage and out front band mix without using House PA systems 

Ok granted these are often smaller pub or hall venues but getting the right sound is often overlooked by many bands who are oblivious to what works etc etc

When a band has discovered that it’s then a lot easier for venues with full PA to make a band sound as they normally do.