1 x 15 & 2 x 10 in a stack, will there be issues?

[EBS_freak]

Of course, the big problem with this, is that nobody wants to own a PA. So whilst a band may know (but it would seem not) that it is better to put the whole band through the PA and run minimal backline, the PA ownership (and transport) problems usually prevent it.

...and hence volume wars continue. And it's not helped when people in the audience start shouting, "we can't hear the vocals" - when the PA has been totally skimped on and not got a hope in hell in getting above the inappropriate backline that has been wheeled in.

[BassAdder60]

I agree singers don’t feel like a small PA system for at least vocals should be something they invest in.

We all expect musicians to own their own amps / drum kits etc etc 

[EBS_freak]

13 minutes ago, BassAdder27 said:

I agree singers don’t feel like a small PA system for at least vocals should be something they invest in.

We all expect musicians to own their own amps / drum kits etc etc 

The singers in my band don't even own their own mics.

Talk about spoon feeding.

[EBS_freak]

13 minutes ago, BassAdder27 said:

I agree singers don’t feel like a small PA system for at least vocals should be something they invest in.

We all expect musicians to own their own amps / drum kits etc etc 

In reality, small PA for vocals don't cut it when placed in a band situation. Bands need a band grade PA, even if only vocals are going through them.

[BassAdder60]

I agree my interpretation of small PA was really a decent vocal only PA yet loud enough to project over the band itself 

Singers also seldom know how to adjust a PA or add reverb etc etc 

Then you have fold back or the lack of it !!

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

In reality, small PA for vocals don't cut it when placed in a band situation. Bands need a band grade PA, even if only vocals are going through them.

That scuppers the vast majority of pub/small club bands then...

All most bands need is a critical and well-informed friend to help them soundcheck.

[EBS_freak]

On 04/02/2021 at 12:40, Stub Mandrel said:

That scuppers the vast majority of pub/small club bands then...

All most bands need is a critical and well-informed friend to help them soundcheck.

 

I totally agree.

critical and well-informed friend : "you're all too loud, you can't hear the vocals. All turn down. The PA hasn't got enough power to go louder to get above the clatter that you lot are making without sacrificing the sound of the vocals further or us being greeted with wailing feedback. You drummer. Yes, you the one with the two chopsticks in your hands. You need to lay off the drums. Next time consider leaving half your cymbals at home... and no, you don't need a second bass drum... or a double kick drum pedal before you get any ideas. Guitarist - you need to turn well down. Yes, yes, yes, I know all about the 'you can't get your tone without being a certain volume' but people are here to primarily listen to the vocals, so keep your ego in check... and you're deluded if you think you are the next guitar hero. The vocals? Yes - that's the person behind that ridiculous Elvis mic with the fairy lights going down the stand. Anyway... back to you mr guitar - don't pretend I didn't see you rolling back your volume pedal. The underage kid at the bar trying to sneak his first drink is better than you already. And don't even think about reaching around for the volume, or playing softer in soundcheck, that stinky poo doesn't wash with me. Bass? Nobody cares about the bass anyway. Do what you want."

Edited February 5, 2021 by EBS_freak
autocorrect errors

[stereoplayer]

It is always recommended not to mix speaker sizes.  But, you do you.  I mix them up many times.  Sometimes I like sometimes I don’t.  Do what YOU want.

[Stub Mandrel]

I've done some long, boring maths and fair bit of thinking.

I am struggling to understand how 'mismatched speakers' in a bass stack can make a significant impact on live sound unless one of them is wired out of phase.

Two reasons:

1 - using two identical speakers could actually be more likely to cause worse dead spots as you need two identical signals to completely cancel each other out.

2 - at the frequencies of significance to most bass the path differences between the elements of a stack is too small to cause destructive interference even at fairly close audience distances, especially if they are mounted one above the other.

The only mechanisms I can see affecting sound out in the audience are:

1 - Beaming.

2 - refections around the venue

3 - interference with the PA sound if the backline is of comparable volume.

But I can't think of any of these that would be made significantly worse by using 'mismatched' speakers any more than using matched ones, other than the extremes of beaming an extreme such as Trace Elliot 'bright box' sending high frequencies over the top of the front of the audience.

 

I'm happy to admit I'm flailing around in the dark with these ideas so if anyone can explain how mismatched speakers cause problems, please do!

[Killed_by_Death]

 

The assumption has been that different sized drivers will complement one another, but there's too many other factors.

Even if the cabinets are rated for the same Wattage & Impedance, there's sensitivity to take into account.

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Killed_by_Death
spelling error

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I'll not bother with the 'whys', it's far too complicated a subject to be explained in a post. One basic bit of audio engineering that I've been shouting into the void for 20 years is that virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either on its own. The real question is whether any particular combination of cabs works better than, or even as well as, a pair of matched cabs. The only way to know for sure is to compare combination AA, AB, and BB side by side. How many actually do that? Virtually no one.

[Stub Mandrel]

25 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I'll not bother with the 'whys', it's far too complicated a subject to be explained in a post. One basic bit of audio engineering that I've been shouting into the void for 20 years is that virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either on its own. The real question is whether any particular combination of cabs works better than, or even as well as, a pair of matched cabs. The only way to know for sure is to compare combination AA, AB, and BB side by side. How many actually do that? Virtually no one.

That was pretty much the conclusion my thought experiment was heading for...

[agedhorse]

5 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I've done some long, boring maths and fair bit of thinking.

I am struggling to understand how 'mismatched speakers' in a bass stack can make a significant impact on live sound unless one of them is wired out of phase.

Two reasons:

1 - using two identical speakers could actually be more likely to cause worse dead spots as you need two identical signals to completely cancel each other out.

2 - at the frequencies of significance to most bass the path differences between the elements of a stack is too small to cause destructive interference even at fairly close audience distances, especially if they are mounted one above the other.

The only mechanisms I can see affecting sound out in the audience are:

1 - Beaming.

2 - refections around the venue

3 - interference with the PA sound if the backline is of comparable volume.

But I can't think of any of these that would be made significantly worse by using 'mismatched' speakers any more than using matched ones, other than the extremes of beaming an extreme such as Trace Elliot 'bright box' sending high frequencies over the top of the front of the audience.

 

I'm happy to admit I'm flailing around in the dark with these ideas so if anyone can explain how mismatched speakers cause problems, please do!

The answer is in part that "it depends", but in practice far field cabinets that are designed to work together (reasonably similar math and phase response) generally will not have any more negative impact on the audience sound than "perfectly matched" speakers as these differences are WAY too far to the right of the decimal point to be a significant factor.

I'm sure somebody could dream up some wild combination that would be a factor, but I'm talking about REASONABLE choices here. 

 

[bertbass]

You'll have to try it and see what it sounds like but not just in your rehearsal space or front room but actually in a venue and again not just on the stage but at all places in the venue.  Go wireless or get a long lead and go walkabout and hear what it sounds like in the audience.  I was quite surprised to hear that the great sound that I heard behind me on stage didn't leave the stage. What I heard was a balanced sound with loads of treble which I loved, every note clear and defined, what the audience heard was a bassy rumble with very little definition at all and certainly no treble unless you were sat in front of my setup within a few feet of the stage.  Very enlightening.

[agedhorse]

3 hours ago, bertbass said:

You'll have to try it and see what it sounds like but not just in your rehearsal space or front room but actually in a venue and again not just on the stage but at all places in the venue.  Go wireless or get a long lead and go walkabout and hear what it sounds like in the audience.  I was quite surprised to hear that the great sound that I heard behind me on stage didn't leave the stage. What I heard was a balanced sound with loads of treble which I loved, every note clear and defined, what the audience heard was a bassy rumble with very little definition at all and certainly no treble unless you were sat in front of my setup within a few feet of the stage.  Very enlightening.

This is something that sound guys deal with daily.