The red light never lies

[lownote]

55 minutes ago, WinterMute said:

Do what everybody else does, fix it in post...

I've recorded some serious bassists over the years, and not a single one has ever said, "I want the whole performance, warts and all" and many have said "you can tidy that up in the edit, right?"

 

I think my point was not just that my recordings could do with a tweak in post, they show I'm pretty warty at playing bass full stop, even after 10 years.  This could explain why I've only ever been asked to join two bands, and then by the same bloke. If my playing is as rubbish as the recordings show I need a major rethink. Despair may not be necessary, but what the recordings indicate is I'm far too notey, and my 'delightful twiddly bits' are just awful and unnecessary.  So I need to get myself back, not to the garden, but the drawing board. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by lownote12

[chris_b]

Some times warts n all is good, but I would be "repairing" for weeks if it were left up to me.

My sense of objectivity goes out the window when the red light comes on. I always used to leave it up to the guys in charge to decide when we were done.

Edited February 3, 2021 by chris_b

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, lownote12 said:

...So I need to get myself back, not to the garden, but the drawing board. 

Repeat after me, as many times and as often as is necessary...

'Less Is More'

[Stub Mandrel]

On 01/02/2021 at 18:00, 4000 said:

This is something I do wonder about a lot of players and bands, whether they regularly record themselves. Because I’ve come across a lot of people who think they’re a lot tighter than they are.😂

It's funny, the first band I was in, we thought we were pretty basic.

Listening to the echoey recordings now (made in a huge hall with a proper stage using a ghetto blaster on a table about 30-40 feet from the band) we were surprisingly tight, if unsophisticated.

But we were practising twice a week, had a great drummer and were never shy of offering genuinely constructive criticism, so if my basslines were off, I was told so!

Now when I practice to recordings, my aim is to make the original bass 'disappear', which can be tricky.

It's very easy to play sightly behind and take cues from the recording.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Stub Mandrel

[4000]

42 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Some times warts n all is good, but I would be "repairing" for weeks if it were left up to me.

My sense of objectivity goes out the window when the red light comes on. I always used to leave it up to the guys in charge to decide when we were done.

Leaving it up to others is dangerous, IMO. I too would happily repair until absolutely perfect. I’m pretty anal about getting things absolutely how I want them to be.

However, as an example, on my band’s last cd there was one track I definitely felt I could have played better; I felt I rushed it ever-so-slightly, and there was another which has a fairly complex figure in the choruses, the first line of which I didn’t feel I nailed 100% cleanly. Everyone else, engineer included, said both ‘issues’ were absolutely fine, so I reluctantly let them go. I’ve regretted it ever since, as I know both issues are there, even if neither bothers anyone else (which they don’t appear to). It’s the same reason I hate decorating and would sooner get someone else to do it, because if I know I’ve done something even minutely wrong, It bugs the crap out of me. 

[WinterMute]

3 hours ago, chris_b said:

Some times warts n all is good, but I would be "repairing" for weeks if it were left up to me.

My sense of objectivity goes out the window when the red light comes on. I always used to leave it up to the guys in charge to decide when we were done.

This is why good engineer/producers will always be useful. 

Although, as other have noted, sometimes "good enough" isn't.

However I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the good on the alter of the perfect.

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, WinterMute said:

This is why good engineer/producers will always be useful. 

Although, as other have noted, sometimes "good enough" isn't.

However I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the good on the alter of the perfect.

I really like that.

[Stub Mandrel]

I don't think I could feel happy with something I had recorded as a series of short sections strung together. I've done my fair share of drop ins and repeats, but I think mcro-twiddling to give the impression I'm much better than i really am is cheating - like pitch correction 🙂

[chris_b]

5 hours ago, WinterMute said:

This is why good engineer/producers will always be useful. 

Although, as other have noted, sometimes "good enough" isn't.

However I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the good on the alter of the perfect.

I used to record demos for a songwriter at his home studio. He would run through the song, give us one or two practice runs and then record. He was a "capture the energy of the moment" guy and was always looking to use the first or second takes!! That's a lot of pressure when you are a "get better over time" type of player!

[chris_b]

5 hours ago, WinterMute said:

This is why good engineer/producers will always be useful.

Yep. That's why producers exist and do the job they do. Musicians are usually too focussed on their individual efforts and don't consider the performance of the band as a whole.

[chris_b]

6 hours ago, 4000 said:

Leaving it up to others is dangerous,

If that's the case they shouldn't be anywhere near your recording. If you haven't got someone in charge whose opinion you can trust you're screwed.

[odysseus]

10 hours ago, WinterMute said:

 

However I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the good on the alter of the perfect.

Yes indeed. A friend of mine was a really good guitarist. Recording tracks would take him months, sometimes even years to reach a point where he was happy with them. Seriously. He eventually made himself mentally ill with the pressure he put on himself and hasn't played for nearly 6 years now, and has sold all his gear. It's supposed to be fun, isn't it? 

[Stub Mandrel]

16 hours ago, WinterMute said:

However I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the good on the alter of the perfect.

I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the barely competent on the altar of the good...

[EMG456]

On 01/02/2021 at 19:50, chris_b said:

Listening to your playing can be enlightening. When minidiscs came out I recorded everything and used them as a learning tool. Sadly the recorder broke and I can't play them anymore. It would be interesting (maybe not!) to go back 20 years and compare.

Should your curiosity become insatiable, I still have a minidisc deck here and would be happy to transfer some stuff for you.

[EMG456]

Some interesting takes on here. 

Mine for the OP is take heart! It's quite difficult to be the best you can be once the red light goes on.

Record more often- you'll get better at it.

While recording, make sure that you have correct mix you need to hear in your headphones - this is crucial to being able to play accurately and with the correct feel. Also, I don't know what your recording situation is but are all the other performances spot on? On quite a few occasions in the studio I've been asked to fix a wee fill or something which sounded out on the listen back but the problem has been on an existing track which hadn't been noticed before. As you up your game everyone else has to as well.

Finally, enjoy. If a couple of bits need fixed either by overdubbing or by studio manipulation, so what? That's all part of the art of recording. And be happy for the end result to be as smooth or as rough as you and your colleagues want.

[BassTractor]

Maybe what follows is not interesting, as I didn't see it mentioned before, but:
I come from a world of classical music where I'd record live, either as an organ player recording only myself or as a member of a constellation recording the whole group.
No sweat whatsoever, great expressiveness etc. and the timing was as precise as one can get.

Mucho transpiro however when having to record to pre-existing multitrack recordings or... shudder... to a clicktrack.
I've never managed, and have lived with the thought I could never learn.

Wondering if you multitrack guys have been through a phase like that.... in that it was indeed only a phase.

[Dad3353]

8 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

...Mucho transpiro however when having to record to pre-existing multitrack recordings or... shudder... to a clicktrack.
I've never managed, and have lived with the thought I could never learn.

Wondering if you multitrack guys have been through a phase like that.... in that it was indeed only a phase.

I've been a bit luckier than that; more often than not, I'm the click-track (I'm the drummer...). I lay down the first cut to a dummy take (usually the singer with an acoustic...) and all the following takes line themselves up to that. It's up to me to be good, of course, but I become the yardstick, and I'm happy with that. The few times (more recently...) that I've played to a click-track, it's gone very well, with no bloopers or overdubs/inserts needed. I am, however, aware that I am not just good, but also lucky. 

[yorks5stringer]

Never been to Amsterdam or the Reeperbahn but I'm sure the OP's adage is very true.

[Stub Mandrel]

I've been convinced that the tempo of Space Truckin' wanders around.

I've just tried using a tempo app on it, counting 60-100 beats for each 'reading'. The first verse is at about 128bpm, it speeds up to about 130 or a bit more.

The drum solo comes in at about 128 but fairly soon slows down to 120.

At the end of the drum solo it quite quickly speeds up to around 130 again.

During the drum sol I'm sure Roger Glover wanders off the drum beat, which explains why this section is hard to play along to despite being very simple (two notes per bar...)

 

[Leonard Smalls]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I'm a firm believer in not sacrificing the barely competent on the altar of the good...

I'm not a believer in sacrificing owt...

After all, one man's "barely competent" is another man's "wow that's amazing",and yet another man's "s'not bad considering he/she's tone deaf and can't play a note".

Even if it sounds really bad to you it's possible to smother it in reverb and call it jazz. Somebody will no doubt agree - after all I always get at least 1 (and sometimes as many as 3!) vote in the monthly Composition Challenge no matter how terrible experimental it might be.

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Leonard Smalls said:

... he/she's tone deaf and can't play a note"...

You been trying to listen to my stuff again..? 

[4000]

16 hours ago, chris_b said:

If that's the case they shouldn't be anywhere near your recording. If you haven't got someone in charge whose opinion you can trust you're screwed.

You seriously underestimate how anal I am. 😂 And actually I’m in charge, when it comes down to it, but I have occasionally allowed for other opinions, as you should.The performances are perfectly acceptable to any normal person, and I understand that; they’re not actually wrong. They’re just not quite acceptable to me. I’ve recorded in many pro studios and have a habit of driving engineers a bit nuts because I’m more finicky than they are. For the most part I’ve had better ears too, which is a bit of a double-edged sword. 

[WinterMute]

6 minutes ago, 4000 said:

You seriously underestimate how anal I am. 😂 And actually I’m in charge, when it comes down to it, but I have occasionally allowed for other opinions, as you should.The performances are perfectly acceptable to any normal person, and I understand that; they’re not actually wrong. They’re just not quite acceptable to me. I’ve recorded in many pro studios and have a habit of driving engineers a bit nuts because I’m more finicky than they are. For the most part I’ve had better ears too, which is a bit of a double-edged sword. 

Engineers tend to listen for different things, producers are more aligned with musicians and performance, the best engineers will pick up timing inconsistencies etc. as a matter of course, but are really listening for tone, clipping, any technical issues that might affect the recording. If you've got someone doing both jobs stuff gets missed and needs fixing later usually.

All these things are academic if the clock wins however.

[4000]

54 minutes ago, WinterMute said:

Engineers tend to listen for different things, producers are more aligned with musicians and performance, the best engineers will pick up timing inconsistencies etc. as a matter of course, but are really listening for tone, clipping, any technical issues that might affect the recording. If you've got someone doing both jobs stuff gets missed and needs fixing later usually.

All these things are academic if the clock wins however.

We produce ourselves. Regardless of any other considerations, we can’t afford a producer. In fact this last year year we can’t afford anything as we’ve made precisely nothing. 

And yes, the clock was a serious consideration in letting the aforementioned issues slide. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by 4000

[4000]

4 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I've been convinced that the tempo of Space Truckin' wanders around.

I've just tried using a tempo app on it, counting 60-100 beats for each 'reading'. The first verse is at about 128bpm, it speeds up to about 130 or a bit more.

The drum solo comes in at about 128 but fairly soon slows down to 120.

At the end of the drum solo it quite quickly speeds up to around 130 again.

During the drum sol I'm sure Roger Glover wanders off the drum beat, which explains why this section is hard to play along to despite being very simple (two notes per bar...)

 

I think if you really analyse them, the tempo of most tracks that weren’t recorded with a click probably wandered to a degree. The fact that it’s mostly irrelevant probably speaks volumes.