Aria FEB with a doublebass radiused board.

[Maude]

1 minute ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Absolutely.  Always the best policy - take one step and then re-assess

And yes - with some tweaks, what you say is perfectly feasible.  The tweaks are that there needs to be enough strength in the joint at the bottom (which is why the heel block is there) to prevent the bass 'clapping hands' when you string it up 

But you will be able to judge the best thing to do once it's off.

I'd sort of gathered that by the big gaps in the factory joint. But there's good contact where it needs to be. As I say, I'm no carpenter but my job means I can assess structural integrity well so will be able to work out where needs to be tight, it's just whether I can achieve it with my poor woodworking skills. 

If not three or four big decking screws into the dovetail at 45 degrees should hold it. 😆

[Andyjr1515]

Hopefully this will help you think it through.  And the tweak on your proposal wouldn't have to be very great to get a joint every bit as sound as the original one.

This is what you are seeing, prior to stealing MrsMaude's steam cleaner:

And this is what you should see after stealing it:

So yes - you could file the 5 degrees-ish angle either side and just follow the angle of the dovetail down - which of course would make the triangle more acute.  

But, assuming you took a template of the original size of the end shape, you would just have to add two tapering pieces of timber to each side of the resulting tenon to recreate this shape, albeit at a 5 degrees angle to present.

Which is, I think, what you said in the first place? 

[Andyjr1515]

And yes - the big gap at the back of the joint (the gap on my dreadnought is smaller but is there nonetheless) is essential.  The angle of the joint itself pulls the neck into the body as it goes down - it is a VERY strong joint when it is fully engaged.  If there wasn't a gap at the back, the tenon would prevent the neck pulling fully against the body and you would have a gap at the sides of the heel and a very weak joint.

[Si600]

Nothing went crunch or sproink, so I reckon you're winning there.

[Maude]

43 minutes ago, Si600 said:

Nothing went crunch or sproink, so I reckon you're winning there.

It's all good so far. There's still a plenty of time yet though. 😉

[Maude]

I've measured up for fingerboards. The Aria board is 41mm at the nut, 65mm at the body end and 657mm long.

I'd like about 770mm length for the new one. 

All boards vary slightly but in general cello boards are all too short, even for the standard Aria one. So it's going to have to be a double bass one.

On average from looking at adverts 3/4 & 1/2 size are 41mm nut and 1/4 size are 36mm, so we're down to two sizes. 

The 3/4 is 860mm long and 96mm at the thick end, the 1/2 is 780mm long and 94mm at the end. Now although I want a wider string spacing it'll have to be a compromise between getting the width and looking/feeling rediculous. So although the 1/2 is the closest in length, if the 3/4 was cut down to 770mm then due to the taper, it would be narrower than the 1/2 at the wide end, so probably more suitable. 

So a 3/4 size board to cut down is on my shopping list. 

I realise this is boring but I've written it here to get it clear in my head and to remember it. 

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

I realise this is boring but I've written it here to get it clear in my head and to remember it. 

Trust us - NONE of this thread is boring.... 

[Maude]

Idly browsing eBay for woods to make a bridge, tailpiece, body end reinforcement etc, and I come across 'Pale Moon' black and white ebony. This is a bit special and unusual. I've no use for, especially at that price but it's rather lovely. 🙂

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pale-Moon-Black-and-White-Ebony-guitar-bass-fingerboard-fretboard-SPECIAL-GRADE-/284149049742?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292

[Maude]

 

🙈

[Maude]

It was T. S. Eliot that wrote, "This is the way the bass ends. This is the way the bass ends. This is the way the bass ends. Not with a bang, but a splinter", or something similar. 

Final score, Me 1, Aria 5. That's to say I'm in one piece, the bass is in, well more pieces than I'd planned. 

I now have a body, a neck and three parts of a heel. I managed to drill the joint and get some heat into the centre following couple of the videos posted by @Matt P, (thanks for those, very interesting) where he used an electric element on one and a soldering iron with a long tip on another instead of steam injection. He mentioned that the steam can get under the finish causing misting and just get water in places you don't want it, so as our old steam mop had been thrown out I thought I'd try it. I cut spoke from an old bike and wound a coil into the end of so my soldering iron would slip inside. Squirted some water down the hole and slipped the spoke in and waited. I could feel the joint warming so occasionally turned the bass over on two wooden blocks with the neck between the two, and firmly tapped the heel with another block of wood and rubber mallet. Nothing. 

More water, more heat, more patience, another whack, tiny gap opening between the heel and the back, but also glue starting to squeeze out of the heel joints. The heel is made up of three individual vertical parts with the neck glued horizontally on top then the whole thing dovetailed and glued into the body. Basically all four parts of the heel/neck started to ooze glue and move independently, but it still wouldn't let go. I guessed as the joints had all moved then there's no going back, the neck has to come off to re glue the four bits. This is where things got messy. I used a heat gun on low as well as the soldering iron to warm the joint completely as it now had to come out somehow, but still burnt some of the finish around the heel. Nevermind, roasted necks are all the rage aren't they? I'm not worried about this as I had a plan in my head as to finish which meant these areas would be a lot darker anyway. It's not black, just darkened it. 

The neck came out leaving the three bits of heel still in there so I drilled the hole slightly bigger so the ceramic element of the soldering iron, with the tip removed, would fit directly in the heel. More cooking and it's all out. It's not pretty but it's all out. 

I've put it away again now to mull it over but as it was built from four parts I assume with some careful cleaning, glueing and clamping, I can refit all the bits, after reshaping. 

I have had another idea but I'll mull things over before air that one. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Maude
I don't even know what bass I've got.

[Pea Turgh]

It’ll work out, I’m sure!  Did you take pictures?

[Maude]

45 minutes ago, Pea Turgh said:

It’ll work out, I’m sure!  Did you take pictures?

No, I had the 'embarrassment eraser filter' on so they didn't come out. 😁

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Maude said:

The neck came out leaving the three bits of heel still in there so I drilled the hole slightly bigger so the ceramic element of the soldering iron, with the tip removed, would fit directly in the heel. More cooking and it's all out. It's not pretty but it's all out. 

I've put it away again now to mull it over but as it was built from four parts I assume with some careful cleaning, glueing and clamping, I can refit all the bits, after reshaping. 

I have had another idea but I'll mull things over before air that one. 

Actually...maybe an opportunity?  I'm thinking the three pieces back staggered to get you 2/3 towards the new angle?

[Maude]

23 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Actually...maybe an opportunity?  I'm thinking the three pieces back staggered to get you 2/3 towards the new angle?

Or........ well, you know.......find someone who could make a new neck about 20mm wider at the body end with the Takamine headstock grafted on with a scarf joint. You don't know anyone do you? 

Ha ha, now you wish you hadn't joined in this thread. 😄

 

I going to leave it for the weekend as I want to try and get my Hofner pickups in and wired up. This Takamine wasn't meant to take over but the excitement of flame throwers and sledgehammers got the better of me. I might get a fingerboard ordered and go from there. I'll order some veneer of some kind as well to shim the dovetail. In one of the vids mentioned earlier he glued a veneer to edges of the dovetail and filed/chiseled/scraped to shaped after changing the neck angle, seems like the simplest way. 

 

[Maude]

Righty ho, here's the next installment of my descent into madness. 😉

The only sensible part so far is that I've got @Andyjr1515waiting in the wings to possibly build me a new, wider neck if needed. Thank you Andy for the assistance you've given so far and any future help.

Ive done some serious measuring using my EUB as a comparison, my doublebass is in storage at the mo. 

The fingerboard at the nut is the same width on both so no issues at that end. At the point where the neck meets the body on the Aria, the EUB board is 10mm wider than the original Aria one, so 5mm overhang either side. It's surprising that a doublebass board is not that much bigger than an electric bass one, the main reason it feels so much bigger is the much tighter radius making it arch a lot higher. This is the original neck layed on the EUB at the body join area of the Aria where the biggest overhang will be. 

The black on the sides is the EUB board which is the same size as a DB. 

The bare wood is the neck to heelblock join which separated with the heat when removing the neck, note the terrible shape from the factory, a really asymmetric carve. 

More of that in a minute though, back to the neck/board. 

I've ordered a board and have a plan to still use the original neck. A new, more DB like neck would be much better to fit the new, wider board to, but if it's deeper like a DB and wider then I'm worried about the added weight on one end the bass. If you can imagine the profile of the Aria neck as a ( shape, then the sides meet the board at less than 90 degrees, if that angle were to be continued on the sides of the DB board, which is 11/12mm thick, then the 5mm overhang might be able to be lost while keeping the top playing surface full size. Remember the nut is the same width so will only gradually get wider towards the body, and after the body the width and shape is irrelevant to it fitting. 

The original neck won't have the profile of a DB neck but I fear that would add far too much weight. Hopefully this way the added weight of the thicker board will be spread as the board will go over the body as well. I possibly have a cunning plan regarding the length of board but that's for later in the week. 

I've glued the three bits heelblock back together. I'll let that dry overnight and glue it to the neck tomorrow. Then I can try and clean up reshape the joint ready for when the new fingerboard arrives. 

What is it they say about clamps? Also if glue is supposed to be sticky, why does everything become unfeasibly slippery once a layer of glue has been added? Not enough pressure from the clamps and the gaps don't close up, too much pressure and the whole thing slides and explodes. 

 

I need to sharpen a chisel to clean out the neck joint socket of this forlorn looking thing now. 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Maude

[Si600]

I understand that you can stop glue joints going walkabout by sprinkling a pinch of salt into the glue.

I've never tried this as by the time I remember I'm always at least one hand and two clamps short trying to hold multiple greased bits of wood together. 

[Maude]

On 12/02/2021 at 18:37, Andyjr1515 said:

Actually...maybe an opportunity?  I'm thinking the three pieces back staggered to get you 2/3 towards the new angle?

I forgot to say, with bass laying on its back, the three pieces are arranged vertically, side by side across the width of the heel, with the neck horizontally on top so I can't stagger them. 

[Andyjr1515]

2 hours ago, Maude said:

I forgot to say, with bass laying on its back, the three pieces are arranged vertically, side by side across the width of the heel, with the neck horizontally on top so I can't stagger them. 

Oh....that's probably worth stealing different!

 

[Maude]

16 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

Oh....that's probably worth stealing different!

 

You can see the joins here. 

[Andyjr1515]

That is indeed different.

[Andyjr1515]

5 hours ago, Maude said:

I need to sharpen a chisel to clean out the neck joint socket of this forlorn looking thing now. 

You've made a good job of getting that off.

One other thing that is worth looking at, by the way, if I remember my applied maths well enough, in terms of vectors.  I am assuming that the down force on the bridge increases with the increased break angle over the bridge from the string angle which will, presumably change the forces that the string tension will apply to it.  The top looks more substantial than an average acoustic guitar top so may well be fine, but it might be worth some judicial check on how thick and rigid that top is.  If there is any doubt, you might want to consider a 'sound post' dowel each side of the bridge inserted through the f-holes? 

[Maude]

 

13 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

That is indeed different.

I think maybe that's why it broke apart. Partly me being a bit heavy handed but partly because the central part of the heelblock has about 60% of the dovetail, while the two outer parts only have about 20% each towards the top so started to move before the centre. 

[Maude]

5 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

One other thing that is worth looking at, by the way, if I remember my applied maths well enough, in terms of vectors.  I am assuming that the down force on the bridge increases with the increased break angle over the bridge from the string angle which will, presumably change the forces that the string tension will apply to it.  The top looks more substantial than an average acoustic guitar top so may well be fine, but it might be worth some judicial check on how thick and rigid that top is.  If there is any doubt, you might want to consider a 'sound post' dowel each side of the bridge inserted through the f-holes? 

I've kind of tried to look at that earlier on in the thread. I made a makeshift bridge mounted in front of the current one, so directly on the soundboard, strung and tuned it up and left it for an hour. Before, during and after showed no noticeable distortion of the soundboard against a straight edge. The proper taller bridge will probably sit on top of the existing bridge so as to spread the load and to utilise the piezo. 

I managed to use the string pegs to do this but will have to use a tailpiece in practice because the extreme angle behind the bridge will pull the pegs out. 

I guess there's no real way of telling how it will react long term without just doing it, but I did mention the possibility of a soundpost earlier in the thread. With the jack socket/battery box one side and the EQ/tuner housing the other removed I have relatively good access to attend to any of these things, even drill and bolt the neck if I don't/can't make a good job of the dovetail.

They may have seemed like nonsensical ramblings but there is some logic in there somewhere, honest. 😄

 

[Andyjr1515]

Ah...missed that.  Sounds sound

[Maude]

More ramblings, mainly so I can remember what's in my head. 😉

The best place for a soundpost if needed? 

A doublebass has a bassbar running from just below the neck joint to around the tailpiece height on the bass side and a soundpost on the treble side. One foot of the bridge is over the bassbar which distributes the tension of the strings over the soundboard, the other foot of the bridge is over the soundpost which transfers vibrations to the rear of the bass, except that the soundpost is normally not directly under the treble foot and if moved around to fine tune the sound of the bass, too close to the bridge foot can choke the vibrations, it's a fine art I don't claim to fully understand. 

With this little knowledge, yeah I know, dangerous, I wonder where the best place would be on this Aria for a soundpost, and would it be detrimental to sound or an improvement?

The Aria has an X brace which crosses about 30mm in front the the bridge, the edges of the bridge sit on this brace. A single soundpost could go directly under the centre of the saddle or under the cross point of the X brace. A pair of posts could go under the braces where the bridge sits but I then have to balance two posts tension so one doesn't fall out, so I'll stick with one for now. 

A DB sounds worse without a soundpost but acoustic basses don't have them so I assume they won't improve the sound, else someone would be fitting them, right? So we can rule out the sound improving by transferring vibrations to the back and say it'll just be for strength. But too stiff will stop the soundboard vibrating properly and deaden the sound. So I wonder if the post would be best directly under the bridge or the X brace in front of the bridge? Which needs to vibrate freely the most? 

It's no wonder I can't sleep at night. 😆