NWOBHM

[MacDaddy]

5 minutes ago, peteb said:

In defence of Def Leppard, without them or Iron Maiden there wouldn’t have been a NWOBHM scene in the first place. Leppard were the first to embrace the DIY punk ethic and apply it to heavy rock, but their ambitions always went far beyond being the darlings of an underground scene.

The second, third and fourth Leppard albums are all great, although I have never even considered buying a DL album after Hysteria. As someone mentioned, they are one of the biggest selling rock bands of all time and they did have a huge crossover appeal, which I understand puts some people off for some reason.

To be honest, I never play those albums these days and DL aren’t one of my absolute favourite bands by any means. However, whenever I do hear / come across YouTube clips of tracks like Foolin’ or Hysteria (or whatever), I always note just how good they are and how well they have stood the test of time. This is in addition to them taking me back to a time and place, which is a mark of a great record... 

 

would Iron Maiden have had continued success, if it was disclosed there was no 'real' bass and drums on every album from Number of the Beast?

(and the singer had been arrested for domestic abuse and the drummer was a convicted wifebeater - but that's another story...)

[Muzz]

33 minutes ago, peteb said:

However, whenever I do hear / come across YouTube clips of tracks like Foolin’ or Hysteria (or whatever), I always note just how good they are and how well they have stood the test of time. This is in addition to them taking me back to a time and place, which is a mark of a great record... 

I was just thinking that the other day, when that Youtube clip of them earlier in the thread led me back into the Hysteria stuff; it's a fantastic album, real benchmark stuff, and you're right about it sounding evocative of its time and yet not dated, either... Huge credit to Mutt Lange, right on top of his game, producing a sound that many many others tried to emulate...

[Bassassin]

16 minutes ago, peteb said:

In defence of Def Leppard, without them or Iron Maiden there wouldn’t have been a NWOBHM scene in the first place... 

Agreed - in different ways they were the scene's breakthrough bands. However I was a Sounds reader pre-NWOBHM and I'd say the catalyst for the entire scene was a Geoff Barton review of a gig (not sure but probably at the Soho Soundhouse), featuring Maiden, Angel Witch and (I think) Samson. I'm pretty sure that review was where the term itself was coined. At the time Barton was pretty much the sole champion of metal in the otherwise agonisingly hip UK music press, and if you were in any way interested in the denim & leather side of music - as a fan or as a musician - Sounds was what you read.

Sounds, and Radio 1's Friday Rock Show (TV on the radio!) became the focus of grassroots-level metal bands all over the UK and the coverage that Barton & Tommy Vance gave those bands created a UK-wide movement, of sorts. Bands like UFO, Priest, & Motorhead tend to get lumped in with the scene but weren't really part of it, although Motorhead's success & industry-outsider attitude made them seem closer to the grassroots bands.

I was a fan as well as trying to get a band together at the time, in 1980 when the scene was properly happening it definitely felt like something you could be part of.

[peteb]

59 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

 

would Iron Maiden have had continued success, if it was disclosed there was no 'real' bass and drums on every album from Number of the Beast?

(and the singer had been arrested for domestic abuse and the drummer was a convicted wifebeater - but that's another story...)

Dunno, don't care... 

I would hate to dispel any illusions you may have, but there are plenty of far better bass players than Rick Savage who haven't played on albums that they are credited on (it has even happened to me, not that I'm particularly claiming to be a better player than Sav). It's not that he's Billy Sheehan or anything, where recording is performance rather than songs based. TBF, I haven't heard that Sav didn't play on DL albums, but regardless, all he would be doing is putting 8s up on a grid and then copy and paste. 

I'm not a Maiden fan (at all), but you have to respect the fanatical following that they have built up. But the bottom line for me is are the songs / records any good and I would rather listen to Hysteria than any Maiden album. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by peteb

[Old Man Riva]

8 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

Agreed - in different ways they were the scene's breakthrough bands. However I was a Sounds reader pre-NWOBHM and I'd say the catalyst for the entire scene was a Geoff Barton review of a gig (not sure but probably at the Soho Soundhouse), featuring Maiden, Angel Witch and (I think) Samson. I'm pretty sure that review was where the term itself was coined. At the time Barton was pretty much the sole champion of metal in the otherwise agonisingly hip UK music press, and if you were in any way interested in the denim & leather side of music - as a fan or as a musician - Sounds was what you read.

Sounds, and Radio 1's Friday Rock Show (TV on the radio!) became the focus of grassroots-level metal bands all over the UK and the coverage that Barton & Tommy Vance gave those bands created a UK-wide movement, of sorts. Bands like UFO, Priest, & Motorhead tend to get lumped in with the scene but weren't really part of it, although Motorhead's success & industry-outsider attitude made them seem closer to the grassroots bands.

I was a fan as well as trying to get a band together at the time, in 1980 when the scene was properly happening it definitely felt like something you could be part of.

I was an avid Sounds reader from the mid/late 70s as it tended to feature a better balance of the music/bands I liked more than other music papers did - i.e. guitar/rock bands, along with punk and New Wave.

Coming from the wonderful industrial city of Coventry (we were always told we came from the furthest point from the sea of anywhere in the UK - there’s a boast to be proud of?!) the paper opened me up to so much music and bands from afar that I’d never encountered, especially some of the US bands.

I used to always look forward to articles by a writer called Sylvie Simmons who covered US bands and/or tours. My introduction to a lot of US bands was through her articles. Another writer I liked was a guy named Pete Makowski (sp?), who tended to cover rock and New Wave acts.

I think it was Geoff Barton who wrote the first Def Leppard article in the paper, which was the one that introduced them to the readers for the first time, and detailed their background - working class, industrial city - which really resonated with me.

Apart from that, his obsession with Kiss always got on my nerves (I’ve genuinely no idea why, but at that tender age it probably didn’t take much!), but I’d rather read his articles than anything by Garry Bushell, who, I feel, chanced his way into/onto the rock articles in Sounds at that time, and whose writing just didn’t do anything for me at all.

And Sounds also often had supporting photos by Ross Halfin, which could raise the quality of an article somewhat...

[peteb]

23 minutes ago, Bassassin said:

Agreed - in different ways they were the scene's breakthrough bands. However I was a Sounds reader pre-NWOBHM and I'd say the catalyst for the entire scene was a Geoff Barton review of a gig (not sure but probably at the Soho Soundhouse), featuring Maiden, Angel Witch and (I think) Samson.

I thought that Barton did a review of a Def Leppard gig in a Sheffield WMC one week, with the review of the Soundhouse gig a week later (but it could have been the other way round). I seem to remember Barton first using the term NWOBHM in the Leppard review, but again it could have been the other way round. 

The Soundhouse was actually in Kingsbury, NW London. 

[Stub Mandrel]

1 minute ago, Old Man Riva said:

Apart from that, his obsession with Kiss always got on my nerves (I’ve genuinely no idea why, but at that tender age it probably didn’t take much!), but I’d rather read his articles than anything by Garry Bushell, who, I feel, chanced his way into/onto the rock articles in Sounds at that time, and whose writing just didn’t do anything for me at all.

Corollary to Godwin's law:

"As a discussion on the Internet grows longer, the likelihood of a comparison of a reviewer being compared to  Gary Bushell increases."

 

[peteb]

5 minutes ago, Old Man Riva said:

I was an avid Sounds reader from the mid/late 70s as it tended to feature a better balance of the music/bands I liked more than other music papers did - i.e. guitar/rock bands, along with punk and New Wave.

Coming from the wonderful industrial city of Coventry (we were always told we came from the furthest point from the sea of anywhere in the UK - there’s a boast to be proud of?!) the paper opened me up to so much music and bands from afar that I’d never encountered, especially some of the US bands.

I used to always look forward to articles by a writer called Sylvie Simmons who covered US bands and/or tours. My introduction to a lot of US bands was through her articles. Another writer I liked was a guy named Pete Makowski (sp?), who tended to cover rock and New Wave acts.

I think it was Geoff Barton who wrote the first Def Leppard article in the paper, which was the one that introduced them to the readers for the first time, and detailed their background - working class, industrial city - which really resonated with me.

Apart from that, his obsession with Kiss always got on my nerves (I’ve genuinely no idea why, but at that tender age it probably didn’t take much!), but I’d rather read his articles than anything by Garry Bushell, who, I feel, chanced his way into/onto the rock articles in Sounds at that time, and whose writing just didn’t do anything for me at all.

And Sounds also often had supporting photos by Ross Halfin, which could raise the quality of an article somewhat...

Actually, I didn't mind Bushell's writing on rock stuff, once he got over telling everybody how working class he was and relating everything to Punk...! 

[Old Man Riva]

3 minutes ago, peteb said:

Actually, I didn't mind Bushell's writing on rock stuff, once he got over telling everybody how working class he was and relating everything to Punk...! 

I didn’t mind “Gal” referencing his roots, it was his choice of words and order he put them in that I couldn’t stand!

[Old Man Riva]

9 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Corollary to Godwin's law:

"As a discussion on the Internet grows longer, the likelihood of a comparison of a reviewer being compared to  Gary Bushell increases."

 

That’ll be Tommy Godwin, Gal’s “erstwhile poncey mate who dishes the proverbial on the likes of Hoxton Tom faster than my pal Jonesy and other assorted wastrel geezers that knew the Krays do when they’re avoiding buying a round at the Lig & Firkin”.

Or summat..! 

[Bassassin]

17 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Corollary to Godwin's law:

"As a discussion on the Internet grows longer, the likelihood of a comparison of a reviewer being compared to  Gary Bushell increases."

I was never a punk, but probably more into that music when I first started reading Sounds. Bushell's constant championing of what to me looked like skinhead thug bands, at a time when skinheads were best known for kicking the sh!t out of punks & anyone else they didn't like the look of, probably helped push me away from that scene.

Was a relief when he cleared off to the redtop gutter press.

[Merton]

55 minutes ago, peteb said:

Dunno, don't care... 

I would hate to dispel any illusions you may have, but there are plenty of far better bass players than Rick Savage who haven't played on albums that they are credited on (it has even happened to me, not that I'm particularly claiming to be a better player than Sav). It's not that he's Billy Sheehan or anything, where recording is performance rather than songs based. TBF, I haven't heard that Sav didn't play on DL albums, but regardless, all he would be doing is putting 8s up on a grid and then copy and paste. 

I'm not a Maiden fan (at all), but you have to respect the fanatical following that they have built up. But the bottom line for me is are the songs / records any good and I would rather listen to Hysteria than any Maiden album. 

I agree with the sentiment here. Ultimately Leppard (pushed or enabled by Mutt...) wanted to expand their sonic boundaries and to do this the drums and bass being programmed gave them what they wanted. Pyromania has a Fender P all over it if you listen closely, it was only Hysteria where they went completely overboard (in a good way) with the Fairlight.

Doing what’s right for the record is all that matters in the studio, so long as they can recreate something close in a live environment. And they can. Sav is a good solid bassist and actually if you listen back to early live recordings had a lot more movement in his lines, certainly on the first album and tour.

Maiden are a different prospect entirely so it’s understandable why they wouldn’t want to program the bass and drums

[Stub Mandrel]

26 minutes ago, Merton said:

Maiden are a different prospect entirely so it’s understandable why they wouldn’t want to program the bass and drums

They only have one rhythm pattern and they've got it down to a tee, so why change?

tum-titty tum-titty tum-titty 🙂

[Merton]

42 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

They only have one rhythm pattern and they've got it down to a tee, so why change?

tum-titty tum-titty tum-titty 🙂

The Ner-wob-am Status Quo 😃

[4000]

4 hours ago, peteb said:

Dunno, don't care... 

I would hate to dispel any illusions you may have, but there are plenty of far better bass players than Rick Savage who haven't played on albums that they are credited on (it has even happened to me, not that I'm particularly claiming to be a better player than Sav). It's not that he's Billy Sheehan or anything, where recording is performance rather than songs based. TBF, I haven't heard that Sav didn't play on DL albums, but regardless, all he would be doing is putting 8s up on a grid and then copy and paste. 

I'm not a Maiden fan (at all), but you have to respect the fanatical following that they have built up. But the bottom line for me is are the songs / records any good and I would rather listen to Hysteria than any Maiden album. 

I like Photograph, thought that was a great record at the time. But even though I’m not a huge Maiden fan, never have been, I’d take Number of the Beast over any DL record, although to be fair the thing that really does me with DL is Joe’s voice. I really don’t like it. Really. That’s one of the issues I have with a lot of the hair metal bands actually, I generally hate the vocalists. 😂 The whole ‘pop metal’ thing doesn’t bother me at all though, although they do fall slightly towards the Camembert side of it. I love bands like Journey and Dan Reed Network (a lot more than Maiden or DL to be fair) and never had a problem with rock bands having catchy songs, like some seem to. But then ABBA might be my favourite band of all time (tied with Yes and Genesis) so no real shock there.😉

Edited February 16, 2021 by 4000

[4000]

3 hours ago, Merton said:

 

Doing what’s right for the record is all that matters in the studio

This. Always and forever. I’d happily replace myself in the studio if I could afford someone I considered better for the record. 

[davepb24]

Was still lurking in a box 🙂

[peteb]

2 hours ago, 4000 said:

I like Photograph, thought that was a great record at the time. But even though I’m not a huge Maiden fan, never have been, I’d take Number of the Beast over any DL record, although to be fair the thing that really does me with DL is Joe’s voice. I really don’t like it. Really. That’s one of the issues I have with a lot of the hair metal bands actually, I generally hate the vocalists. 😂 The whole ‘pop metal’ thing doesn’t bother me at all though, although they do fall slightly towards the Camembert side of it. I love bands like Journey and Dan Reed Network (a lot more than Maiden or DL to be fair) and never had a problem with rock bands having catchy songs, like some seem to. But then ABBA might be my favourite band of all time (tied with Yes and Genesis) so no real shock there.😉

Well, Joe Elliott is no Steve Perry that’s for certain – but then again, neither is Phil Mogg.  Even DLR wasn’t the greatest singer around by any means (especially live) and he fronted my favourite band ever! To be fair, Bruce isn’t exactly a Myles Kennedy or a Seb Bach.

What Elliott does have is a pretty impressive rock / pop sensibility and can draw on lots of influences (from Bowie / Mott to Aerosmith to way beyond). He knows his music and it shows in the writing.

The ironic thing is that DL now have two industrial grade, top notch lead guitarists who are content to layer rhythm guitar parts and little melodic lead guitar motifs, hardly ever really letting rip. Maiden on the other hand have a big three guitar metal guitar attack, without remotely matching the potential fire power of Phil Collen and Viv Campbell.

I don’t really want to go too far down the rabbit hole of defending DL – my tastes generally run to more soulful, more blues based hard rock and they are by no means one of my favourite bands. I just thought that they made a few good records, captured a moment of 80s rock and were deservedly successful doing so.

Edited February 16, 2021 by peteb

[4000]

I don’t think it’s the quality of the singing that bothers me as much as the type of voice. I really am not of fan of what I refer to as “the three-octave-up pub singer”. 😂 DLR certainly doesn’t all into that category, but most of the hair band vocalists do. I’m not even that much of a fan of Myles Kennedy’s voice - although he can undoubtedly sing - and my thoughts on Skid Row are best left out of print (doubtless coloured by my historic acquaintance with a local band who thought they were the UK’s answer to them and really, really, really weren’t). Coverdale is a prime example of someone with what I consider a fabulous voice who for some reason latterly chooses to sing in that high-pitched, nasal whine that I hate. But I digress. Sorry. 😂

I think unfortunately the rise of DL coincided with my waning interest in the then-current state of rock (except for the aforementioned Bon Jovi’s first, which I thought at the time had a lot more energy than DL). Well, at least until 1984, when I first witnessed the mighty Kings of Metal, which kind of took me back to Priest and Sabbath again. 😉

[peteb]

7 minutes ago, 4000 said:

I don’t think it’s the quality of the singing that bothers me as much as the type of voice. I really am not of fan of what I refer to as “the three-octave-up pub singer”. 😂 DLR certainly doesn’t all into that category, but most of the hair band vocalists do. I’m not even that much of a fan of Myles Kennedy’s voice - although he can undoubtedly sing - and my thoughts on Skid Row are best left out of print (doubtless coloured by my historic acquaintance with a local band who thought they were the UK’s answer to them and really, really, really weren’t). Coverdale is a prime example of someone with what I consider a fabulous voice who for some reason latterly chooses to sing in that high-pitched, nasal whine that I hate. But I digress. Sorry. 😂

 

Anyway, enough about Def Leppard already! I just thought that anyone into NWOBHM should appreciate their role in creating the scene and what they went on to do afterwards. You don't necessarily have to like them to acknowledge their achievements.  

I agree with you about Coverdale – one of my favourite singers with a superb voice, which he ruined by singing in the wrong register and trying to sound like Vince f***in’ Neil…!

[Clarky]

Somewhere in the bowels of my Mum's vinyl collection are my Def Leppard's 'Get Your Rocks Off/Riding into the Sun' EP and Paul DiAnno-era Iron Maiden's 'Sanctuary/Prowler' double A side ... erm as well Fist 'Name Rank and Serial Number'!

Must try and retrieve them next time I visit as I bet they are worth a pretty penny today

[Billy Apple]

11 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Somewhere in the bowels of my Mum's vinyl collection are my Def Leppard's 'Get Your Rocks Off/Riding into the Sun' EP and Paul DiAnno-era Iron Maiden's 'Sanctuary/Prowler' double A side ... erm as well Fist 'Name Rank and Serial Number'!

Must try and retrieve them next time I visit as I bet they are worth a pretty penny today

When I left home my records were left in my old room in a gap between the wardrobe and the wall...

After an indeterminate amount of time I was around the house and my Dad asked if I wanted to clear the stuff because they we're going to decorate my old room. I went upstairs to retrieve the vinyl.

That was the moment I discovered out cat had been using the nook as a toilet. All my old records growing mould on them and stuck together with cat pi55

He was my cat as well... What an absolute B@5tard!

Edited February 16, 2021 by Billy Apple

[peteb]

15 minutes ago, Clarky said:

Somewhere in the bowels of my Mum's vinyl collection are my Def Leppard's 'Get Your Rocks Off/Riding into the Sun' EP and Paul DiAnno-era Iron Maiden's 'Sanctuary/Prowler' double A side ... erm as well Fist 'Name Rank and Serial Number'!

Must try and retrieve them next time I visit as I bet they are worth a pretty penny today

I used to have all three of those in a box of singles that went missing, presumably in one of my many house moves in my 30s. I know a guy who deals in secondhand records (specialises a bit in NWOBHM stuff) and he reckons that they would all have been worth a fair few quid. He couldn't believe that I had somehow managed to lose them...! 

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

I have the first metal for muthas album, but haven't played it for many many years. Mailnky because I was getting into other bands and lost interest. I gave my 7" singles to an animal charity shop.  I play mostly cds these days , and found maintaing 7" singles to be a pita .

One odd memory I have from the metal for muthas album , is thebootliggers track . The guitar solo sounded like a violin . It was in fact a turned down strat according to my friend at the time , but it certainly didn't sound like a metal guitar solo . I'll have to dig it out again. 

One band who I missed out on at the time ..more. My friends at the time had the album and saw them a few times . They even supported ted nugent at hammy o.  Didn't do it for me  at the time , but had a following . I think the guitarist was part of mammoth? Not sure what happened to the rest of them. They were on Atlantic records ...

[Old Man Riva]

33 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

That was the moment I discovered out cat had been using the nook as a toilet. All my old records growing mould on them and stuck together with cat pi55

He was my cat as well... What an absolute B@5tard!

You’ve lost that loving feline?