Back up Amp - or nothing ?

[Phil Starr]

I can't believe this thread is still going but it's interesting that I'm re-examining what i might do when we all go back to gigging. Just for context I was the sound guy in my youth in the days when frankly most amps were valve driven and incredibly unreliable and a lot of gear had to be built because there were gaps in the market. I carried spare everything and a full toolkit and have soldered replacement parts in the middle of gigs. When i started as a musician in my mid 50's I just carried spares of everything including anything needed to keep the rest of the band going. It took me a while to realise I wasn't responsible for everyone else  The change came for me with the adoption of active speakers, no point in taking a spare amp and speaker if you can't pair them anyway. At the same time came the realisation that the only thing that has ever gone wrong at a gig is  a lead or two. I carry spare leads and that's it, Oh apart from batteries I use rechargeables and carry a spare set and a charger. 

I don't carry fuses or a tool kit any more, I think that's probably a mistake so catching up with this thread i'm going to have a think about what I take in future and pack a 'first aid box for gigs' in the car; next to the first aid box perhaps? 

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, mcnach said:

But it isn't, it's super easy on a DAW, it's visual, move a couple of points, sorted.

Or maybe that just comes easier to me, a couple of years ago we were recording one song for a charity CD thing and I was not happy with the mix, I tried to explain to the guy recording us what I wanted but he wasn't quite getting it so he let me have a go... got it straight away. I don't know a lot, but I know what I like, I guess.

Actually, come to think of it, the way I 'discovered' that was with my D800+. Literally 2 controls: the adjustable HPF and the bass EQ control. I accidentally found that if I turned the bass higher than I wanted and used the HPF to slightly 'trim' the lowest end, I get that fat bass tone that retains definition and has no flab. It's been central to how I EQ my bass ever since.

See there you go - that's a decently sophisticated approach! How many bass players in the real world (or even on BC) do you think are regularly using a DAW? My "back up" approach (to vaguely keep our thread high jack on track**) is just to use a simple looper pedal for getting ideas down which I can then upload to my PC and share. And even that very basic approach is a step too far for a lot of folk who say they have no means of recording clips to illustrate the points they are making.

Yeah - your D800+ post was actually one of those (bizarrely) memorable posts for me and a really useful insight.

 

**Btw a thread hijack is entirely called for: I'm sure the basic point has now been made a zillion times that some folk take a back up amp to gigs and others are happy not to! 😁

[Jack]

14 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

I get that going wireless on stage would be really physically liberating, but the batteries...urgh! What if you accidentally leave it turned on between the soundcheck and the gig...? 🤮  (I do understand that this is a particularly personal neurosis! 😁  ) 

I've never had a wireless that wouldn't last from set up to tear down. That said, I felt a lot better about my Smoothound and Line 6 units that took AA or AAA as they could be 'recharged' in 2 minutes easily whereas my current Shure takes proprietary batteries.

 

Try it! 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Jack

[Cuzzie]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

See there you go - that's a decently sophisticated approach! How many bass players in the real world (or even on BC) do you think are regularly using a DAW? My "back up" approach (to vaguely keep our thread high jack on track**) is just to use a simple looper pedal for getting ideas down which I can then upload to my PC and share. And even that very basic approach is a step too far for a lot of folk who say they have no means of recording clips to illustrate the points they are making.

Yeah - your D800+ post was actually one of those (bizarrely) memorable posts for me and a really useful insight.

 

**Btw a thread hijack is entirely called for: I'm sure the basic point has now been made a zillion times that some folk take a back up amp to gigs and others are happy not to! 😁

DAW is just a Digital Audio Workstation or if you used on a mobile device Mobile Audio Workstation.

It incorporates very simple software through to complex software and the whole caboodle including PC, audio interfaces, midi controllers etc.

I would say that anyone who records anything no matter how simple is effectively using it, which will be the majority.

How deep you delve is dependent on you and the software - simple gain reduction and levels +/- inserting a ready made beat and you have used it. You can use compression, plug ins etc

Its up to you, but I would wager nearly everyone uses it in some form

[Al Krow]

Well if you're saying that any mobile phone recording is essentially a DAW then yup pretty much everyone has a mobile phone.

But I suspect that's not what either me and Mr McNach are referring to!

If you're saying everyone uses Reaper or an equivalent, then I disagree.

[Jack]

3 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

DAW is just a Digital Audio Workstation or if you used on a mobile device Mobile Audio Workstation.

It incorporates very simple software through to complex software and the whole caboodle including PC, audio interfaces, midi controllers etc.

I would say that anyone who records anything no matter how simple is effectively using it, which will be the majority.

How deep you delve is dependent on you and the software - simple gain reduction and levels +/- inserting a ready made beat and you have used it. You can use compression, plug ins etc

Its up to you, but I would wager nearly everyone uses it in some form

Nah again I think this speaks to the self selection bias on an internet forum. I work with 7 band members across 2 bands and only one of them has the gear/knowledge/inclination to record at home.

[Cuzzie]

Nope i am saying what i am saying - mobiles have massively increased the amount we can do on the fly.

It all depends on what you are recording for - If you are sharing ideas then your audio recorder on your phone or video recorder on your phone is very easy to do.

I have a zoom H2N - which is bargain base simple and its in the room to record band jams, which can then be saved and work out parts from there, same with an audio recorder on the phone.

I quite clearly said, how deep you dive and use is another thing, but most people will be able to record something and share a file.

So Krow -your DAW is your looper into a PC and store and share - you may or may not have taken the raw bass signal, or you maybe have EQ’d it, popped effects before it, had your drum machine record along to it - you are doing it.

Thats the only point more of encouragement not chastisement 

[MuddBass]

For me, for peace of mind and emergencies I always have a SWR amplite + DI pedal + other bits and bobs such as fuses, tape, tools etc, all in a small bag which lives in my car, beside the spare tire. Hidden under the floor. Also in the bag is a nappy; it stops things getting damp. I replace this once in a while, normally when I get my gear PAT tested.

This kit has been very useful: I've leant bits out to other muso's over the years, and I like having the piece of mind that this offers. As an example: the SWR has been used in a past emergency to power a small vocal PA at a wedding; I was a dep bassist for that gig, and the band were grateful I had this to hand when their gear failed. I've played for this band many times since and it always comes up in conversation how I saved the day.

For me, my 'mini emergency kit' is as useful as the spare tire it sits alongside; rarely used but nice to know it's there!

I always take two basses in my Mono Dual bass gig bag; usually a four and a five, but depends on the gig. It's easy to swap basses if a string snaps mid-song; been there, done that.

On upright gigs, I always carry a spare fretless electric - especially for weddings in marquees. I has amazed me over the years how low the ceiling height is where the band is asked to play; even if the contract stipulates 7ft clearance required. I am 6ft 3 and need a minimum of 7ft (ideally higher), clearance for upright bass. My fretless has been used many times in these situations.

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by MuddBass

[mcnach]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

See there you go - that's a decently sophisticated approach! How many bass players in the real world (or even on BC) do you think are regularly using a DAW? My "back up" approach (to vaguely keep our thread high jack on track**) is just to use a simple looper pedal for getting ideas down which I can then upload to my PC and share. And even that very basic approach is a step too far for a lot of folk who say they have no means of recording clips to illustrate the points they are making.

Yeah - your D800+ post was actually one of those (bizarrely) memorable posts for me and a really useful insight.

 

**Btw a thread hijack is entirely called for: I'm sure the basic point has now been made a zillion times that some folk take a back up amp to gigs and others are happy not to! 😁

 

My DAW experience is very rudimentary. In the case I mentioned I was simply dealing with an EQ curve basically, which I'm familiar enough with in relation to bass: my mixing abilities are not very good, I just have spent enough time with EQs to have a sense for what I want to do to a bass sound in order to fit the way I want it... roughly. On a DAW you just have a nice big graph that you can play around with  

But yeah, we've departed a lot from the main topic, the OP will tell us off any minute now

[mcnach]

6 hours ago, Jack said:

Nah again I think this speaks to the self selection bias on an internet forum. I work with 7 band members across 2 bands and only one of them has the gear/knowledge/inclination to record at home.

 

Out of curiosity: has this changed during the pandemic? 

With the people I play with, it was only a few that would regularly record at home, but now nearly all of us have some way of recording and sharing ideas. Nothing amazing, just enough to share basic demos. I have used Reaper and Cubase in the past, although probably using 5% of their capabilities. Now I tend to do everything on n-track and an android tablet, as basic as it gets, but it's enough and extremely easy to use, the closest to the old tape multitracks we used to play with years ago.

[mcnach]

6 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Nope i am saying what i am saying - mobiles have massively increased the amount we can do on the fly.

It all depends on what you are recording for - If you are sharing ideas then your audio recorder on your phone or video recorder on your phone is very easy to do.

I have a zoom H2N - which is bargain base simple and its in the room to record band jams, which can then be saved and work out parts from there, same with an audio recorder on the phone.

I quite clearly said, how deep you dive and use is another thing, but most people will be able to record something and share a file.

So Krow -your DAW is your looper into a PC and store and share - you may or may not have taken the raw bass signal, or you maybe have EQ’d it, popped effects before it, had your drum machine record along to it - you are doing it.

Thats the only point more of encouragement not chastisement 

 

Yup. You can run n-track on your mobile phone, in fact. That's how I started using it, as I wanted something to catch ideas anywhere fast. I only moved to a tablet because the screen was too small and kept hitting the wrong keys  but the functionality is there.

[Cuzzie]

1 minute ago, mcnach said:

 

Yup. You can run n-track on your mobile phone, in fact. That's how I started using it, as I wanted something to catch ideas anywhere fast. I only moved to a tablet because the screen was too small and kept hitting the wrong keys  but the functionality is there.

Sausage fingers like me as well then

[Jack]

17 minutes ago, mcnach said:

Out of curiosity: has this changed during the pandemic? 

You'd think so but no! I've got 2 singers who are the stereotypical technophobes, 2 drummers, who in fairness probably would be OK but I mean I couldn't track drums at home so fair enough, and 3 guitarists. One is great, records loads, has a full band between him and his two kids. One is not at all interested in anything technical, like he asks for help amp shopping. Last guitarist is interesting as he'll get there, but only 17 and limited by budget and experience. He's in music college though, so probably one day soon. 

[Al Krow]

16 minutes ago, mcnach said:

Yup. You can run n-track on your mobile phone, in fact. That's how I started using it, as I wanted something to catch ideas anywhere fast. I only moved to a tablet because the screen was too small and kept hitting the wrong keys  but the functionality is there.

But can you see the EQ waveforms you were referring to when recording with your mobile phone and just using the "standard" recording software that comes with your phones as opposed to paying for something specialist such n-Track which seems to be an alternative to Reaper / Ableton / Mixcraft etc? 

Obviously pretty much everyone has a mobile phone, but my point is that they are not using specialist DAW software that would allow to delve into EQ waveforms etc. That's the angle that I think @Jack and certainly I am coming from here - it's really about common parlance. I don't think most folk would describe a mobile phone as a DAW; for me it's a bit like someone referring to their "set of wheels" meaning a car and then someone jumping in with: 

Just keeping this "on topic", I probably wouldn't consider the above an adequate Plan B for a gig if the car broke down. Just sayin' 😁

[Cuzzie]

19 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

But can you see the EQ waveforms you were referring to when recording with your mobile phone and just using the "standard" recording software that comes with your phones as opposed to paying for something specialist such n-Track which seems to be an alternative to Reaper / Ableton / Mixcraft etc? 

Obviously pretty much everyone has a mobile phone, but my point is that they are not using specialist DAW software that would allow to delve into EQ waveforms etc. That's the angle that I think @Jack and certainly I am coming from here - it's really about common parlance. I don't think most folk would describe a mobile phone as a DAW; for me it's a bit like someone referring to their "set of wheels" meaning a car and then someone jumping in with: 

Just keeping this "on topic", I probably wouldn't consider the above an adequate Plan B for a gig if the car broke down. Just sayin' 😁

What, do you mean something like GarageBand which is free and on your smart device...............

 

[Al Krow]

I would certainly agree that Garage Band is DAW software (and a very good one from its rep). And yes I agree it's "free" - you just need to pay for entry ticket of having an Apple Device.

But I would still politely suggest that a minority of bass players / band members are using a DAW whether it be Reaper, Ableton or Garage Band etc.

If you go onto the recording forum and review threads on "which DAW," there are zero references I've seen to anyone referring to mobile phones and loopers as being DAWs. Your comment earlier was the first I heard anyone make that statement up.

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Yeah - your D800+ post was actually one of those (bizarrely) memorable posts for me and a really useful insight.

I thought there was a Leonard Cohen song about that.

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

I thought there was a Leonard Cohen song about that.

Now that would be an excellent thread de-rail! 😁

[Cuzzie]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I would certainly agree that Garage Band is DAW software (and a very good one from its rep). And yes I agree it's "free" - you just need to pay for entry ticket of having an Apple Device.

But I would still politely suggest that a minority of bass players / band members are using a DAW whether it be Reaper, Ableton or Garage Band etc.

If you go onto the recording forum and review threads on "which DAW," there are zero references I've seen to anyone referring to mobile phones and loopers as being DAWs. Your comment earlier was the first I heard anyone make that statement up.

The entry ticket is any mobile device/tablet - if you are Android N-track has a free version, band Lab, FL studio, Songmaker amongst others all completely free. Maybe if i went to the forum an asked about DAW they wouldn’t say mobile phone, but they may well talk about all of the above that are software on a mobile device - that is obvious. It’s just hardware and software.

You suggested visual EQ is not part of these freebies, i give an example, but of course you will come up with something else to make not so that is actually so.

The point you are trying to make about a DAW being some form of massively complex thing only the minority use is simply perpetuating the myth. Break it down into what it simply is and in some way or form there is the realisation the majority of people are doing it, or can do it easily and successfully.

The example i gave of your set up is because you have the components to record sound and share it - that is the basic premise. The majority of people have the ability in their bags and  pockets, do it in a simple way and could do more.

It’s the classic when you are educating people - putting educational materials into the prison you had to circumvent what they were hardwired to think. You got them making cabinets, cupboards etc. Ask them before they will swear blind they cannot do maths, ask them after they have made a jointed cupboard, they will say - i made a cupboard. Yes you did, but you also measured, added, subtracted, used angles, multiplication etc - they have done maths

Thats all i am saying

[Cuzzie]

P.S. a majority only has to be 50.1% or 51 if you want to deal in whole people

Edited February 28, 2021 by Cuzzie

[Downunderwonder]

Way less than half the musicians I know could whip up a recording session in the next hour, me neither.

[mcnach]

16 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But can you see the EQ waveforms you were referring to when recording with your mobile phone and just using the "standard" recording software that comes with your phones as opposed to paying for something specialist such n-Track which seems to be an alternative to Reaper / Ableton / Mixcraft etc? 

Obviously pretty much everyone has a mobile phone, but my point is that they are not using specialist DAW software that would allow to delve into EQ waveforms etc. That's the angle that I think @Jack and certainly I am coming from here - it's really about common parlance. I don't think most folk would describe a mobile phone as a DAW; for me it's a bit like someone referring to their "set of wheels" meaning a car and then someone jumping in with: 

Just keeping this "on topic", I probably wouldn't consider the above an adequate Plan B for a gig if the car broke down. Just sayin' 😁

 

You're somehow fixated with the DAW example I mentioned

I don't do that sort of stuff with any DAW of any sort. I only said I 'discovered' this idea about having a 'bump' just at the corner of the frequency you're setting your filter at with my D800+ (the counterintuitive to me, at the time, set the HPF to cut higher, but also boost the bass EQ control), and that the DAW shows you exactly how that works in practice, so in that particular recording session I found it easier to communicate what I wanted to do to the bass by actually changing the EQ curve on the screen. The Broughton unit is supposed to allow you to play around with that 'bump' on both the HPF and the LPF so the effect should be reproducible with it, hence my original interest in it.

[mcnach]

16 hours ago, Al Krow said:

But can you see the EQ waveforms you were referring to when recording with your mobile phone and just using the "standard" recording software that comes with your phones as opposed to paying for something specialist such n-Track which seems to be an alternative to Reaper / Ableton / Mixcraft etc? 

Obviously pretty much everyone has a mobile phone, but my point is that they are not using specialist DAW software that would allow to delve into EQ waveforms etc. That's the angle that I think @Jack and certainly I am coming from here - it's really about common parlance. I don't think most folk would describe a mobile phone as a DAW; for me it's a bit like someone referring to their "set of wheels" meaning a car and then someone jumping in with: 

Just keeping this "on topic", I probably wouldn't consider the above an adequate Plan B for a gig if the car broke down. Just sayin' 😁

 

Oh, and about n-track and mobile phone/android... For me it's not about having a full DAW (a laptop is not a lot bigger and much better suited). I was recording basic ideas on my phone alread, press record, away you go. But that was a bit too basic. With n-track (or garageband for Mac etc) you can use a decent sounding drum track (loops, or imported, or using the built-in drum machine... your choice), and add some bass, a couple of guitars, some vocal cues, or basic synth sounds, with ease, like the old tape multitrack machines. Much like in the old days I had a 4-track tape machine instead of using my little cassete player to sketch my ideas. The difference is I had to save to buy my multitrack machine (£4-500 in 1994 was a LOT of money to me) while I only had to pay $30 I think it was to get the app and use it on my phone or my tablet. It was worth it to me and I only use a fraction of its capabilities. I hope this clarifies the mobile DAW thing... 

 

edit: and as @Cuzzie indicated, there's even a free version of n-track, I forgot about it. I just tend to like to pay a little when I find an app that really works for me, even if I could live with the limitations of the free versions. But that's just my choice. I'm pretty sure n-track is just one of many similar apps (the reason I chose it is that I had used it years ago on an ancient PC and I liked their approach, very simple).

 

I think this is as much of a derail I can take until next week

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by mcnach

[Al Krow]

Haha - fixated only in the sense of saying that using a DAW to demonstrate EQ curves was a relatively sophisticated thing to be doing for an average muso.

That really was the only point I was making and I think we can safely agree on that - or not, it doesn't matter too much either way in the scheme of things, does it? - Lol. 

Look forward to what next week may bring...😄 

[mcnach]

55 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Haha - fixated only in the sense of saying that using a DAW to demonstrate EQ curves was a relatively sophisticated thing to be doing for an average muso.

That really was the only point I was making and I think we can safely agree on that - or not, it doesn't matter too much either way in the scheme of things, does it? - Lol. 

Look forward to what next week may bring...😄 

 

I see! 

I was losing track of where we were going with any of that

Erm... yeah, my mobile phone would be my backup for the tablet, should it fail.