A luthier's experience with tonewoods

[BassTractor]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I love the idea of a blindfolded scientist passing a Stradivarius to a blindfolded violinist, what could possibly go wrong?

😀
Not a problem though. One takes out the sticker from the Strad's wreckage and glues it into the new-built copy  -  assuming they were lucky when passing that one. 😉

I should've avoided the "double-blind" term as I do not really recall exactly how they did this  -  bar remembering the whole point was to take certain biases out of the equation. 

[deepbass5]

Are we heading for agreement on   -   Red guitars are louder conclusion to this topic

 

 

 

[PlungerModerno]

4 hours ago, Muzz said:

I think it's safe to say that 95% of the talk about tonewoods is still nonsense... 😁

At least 95% is marketing and people hearing with their eyes not their ears in my opinion. It might not be nonsense but I find it unconvincing, outside of acoustic instruments, where even there it is usually less important than construction/design. I think the biggest difference is it's psychological impact. You'll play a pristine bass differently to a really battered, sticker-covered workhorse (at least I would). I think we drive differently depending on the cars interior (pleasing looks, ergonomics, feel of the controls etc.) same with instruments.

[Maude]

4 minutes ago, deepbass5 said:

Are we heading for agreement on   -   Red guitars are louder conclusion to this topic

 

 

 

Colours appears as the colour you see due to the varying amounts of lightwaves they absorb, and therefore reflect back to your eye. If a surface absorbs the longer lightwaves towards the red end of the visible spectrum then it will appear as a colour towards the blue end of the spectrum with shorter lightwaves. The frequency of wave it absorbs, and thus reflects will determine its appearance somewhere in the spectrum. 

To appear red the surface will need to absorb all the, other increasingly shorter frequency waves, shorter waves being denser than longer waves means that the surface will be denser than a blue surface, or any other colour, so it will resonate better sending more of its sound frequencies back out to the strings, resulting in a louder instrument. 

So yes, you're correct. 😁

[deepbass5]

I accept all the above, but not if said red guitar is made from a non tone wood,

[deepbass5]

shall we start on 35" v 34 " v 32" necks 😉

[Maude]

5 minutes ago, deepbass5 said:

shall we start on 35" v 34 " v 32" necks 😉

That debate would scale new heights. 

[Dan Dare]

Don't fret about it.

[Phil Starr]

Let's hope what we say in lockdown stays in lockdown

[Dan Dare]

10 hours ago, Geek99 said:

Yes but plugged-in, amplified solid body instruments are a more complex mix of factors than a purely acoustic one

???? I have a friend who is a highly regarded violin maker (players in major London orchestras use his instruments). He also does restoration and repair on some pretty special stuff. I visited him once and he had a viola in his workshop. I asked, jokingly, whether it was a Strad'. "Yes", he replied. "It's actually the only Strad' viola in the country" (there are just a dozen known to be in existence worldwide).

I asked him whether he thought the working of an amplified solid instrument was more complex than an acoustic one and he was amused. I shan't mention his name because he would rather I didn't.

[mikel]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

@tegs07, agreed different woods might sound slightly different, as they will resonate differently due to density, and I agree that none will sound bad.

That's why I feel the word 'tonewood' is pure marketing waffle. 

The differences in wood used, and how they are used, is just that, differences. You might prefer your three piece Ash Squier, I might prefer your blockwood with ply caps. I prefer Precision to a Jazz, that doesn't make the Jazz bad, just different. 

As @Doctor J said, let's just call it wood. 

 

Woods may resonate slightly differently, but how much of this minute difference is picked up by regular pickups? They are designed to pick up string vibration primarily.

[Maude]

15 minutes ago, mikel said:

Woods may resonate slightly differently, but how much of this minute difference is picked up by regular pickups? They are designed to pick up string vibration primarily.

Very, very little is my opinion, hence why I've said the tonewood debate is nonsense. 

I'll happily believe that the body wood can have a  slight affect on string vibration as it's the wood that holds either end of the string apart. If the wood is denser I reckon it will have less damping effect on the string vibrations. But I don't believe that any wood used for guitar construction would have a detrimental effect on how it sounds. The changes are so minimal as to be negated by many other factors. 

If 'tonewood' was a thing, as opposed to just plain old wood for guitar building, then would a bass built from the best tonewood available with a poor pickup sound better than a plywood bass with a very good pickup? I'd say no chance. 

In theory air temperature and density will have an affect on string vibration, just as wood type will, but it's so negligible as to not be worth mentioning, much like what wood the body is made from. 

[Cuzzie]

17 minutes ago, Maude said:

Very, very little is my opinion, hence why I've said the tonewood debate is nonsense. 

I'll happily believe that the body wood can have a  slight affect on string vibration as it's the wood that holds either end of the string apart. If the wood is denser I reckon it will have less damping effect on the string vibrations. But I don't believe that any wood used for guitar construction would have a detrimental effect on how it sounds. The changes are so minimal as to be negated by many other factors. 

If 'tonewood' was a thing, as opposed to just plain old wood for guitar building, then would a bass built from the best tonewood available with a poor pickup sound better than a plywood bass with a very good pickup? I'd say no chance. 

In theory air temperature and density will have an affect on string vibration, just as wood type will, but it's so negligible as to not be worth mentioning, much like what wood the body is made from. 

Tonewood covers a vast spectrum - of interest what do you consider tonewood and what do you consider plain old wood?

Edited March 3, 2021 by Cuzzie

[Maude]

6 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Tonewood covers a vast spectrum - of interest what do you consider tonewood and what do you consider plain old wood?

I don't consider any tonewood. It's either wood suitable for building a bass, or it isn't. 

A post of mine further back in this thread explains that. 

I've been trying to get someone to tell me a wood that is structurally suitable for bass building but isn't used due to its poor tone. If there isn't one then surely it's just wood suitable for a bass or not. 

[Cuzzie]

Just now, Maude said:

I don't consider any tonewood. It's either wood suitable for building a bass, or it isn't. 

A post of mine further back in this thread explains that. 

I've been trying to get someone to tell me a wood that is structurally suitable for bass building but isn't used due to its poor tone. If there isn't one then surely it's just wood suitable for a bass or not. 

Which makes it a tonewood then does it not?

[Doctor J]

It also makes it spoonwood, chairwood, batwood, gatewood and any other application you may use it for?

[Maude]

Just now, Cuzzie said:

Which makes it a tonewood then does it not?

What's tone got to do with it though? 

If it has the required weight, strength and stability then it's suitable. Those same attributes would make it suitable for a tabletop, what do call it then? 

[tegs07]

14 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Tonewood covers a vast spectrum - of interest 

It is pretty extensive... some of these I have never heard of..

Timberline-Exotic-Hardwoods-TONEWOODS-LIST-2020.pdf

[Cuzzie]

Furniture wood, ship building wood, some woods are better for chopping boards due to lack of porosity. Very porous wood is terrible for it,unless filled and properly treated as it will lead to bacteria ingress and proliferation. Cedar, some people Minoan about its softer nature and marks on their precious basses, but ships are built with it, so its pretty hardy

I neither coined the term or grouped them - it covers a vast array of woods.If it can make a table and a bass it’s a very useful wood indeed 

[Killed_by_Death]

57 minutes ago, mikel said:

Woods may resonate slightly differently, but how much of this minute difference is picked up by regular pickups? 

When the string vibrates at a frequency resonant to the wood, you get dead spots, so yes it does make a difference.

When the wood is vibrating at a resonant frequency it saps away the energy from the vibration of the string.

 

[SteveXFR]

I used to hear similar arguments in mountain bike racing. Considering we were smashing down a mountain side cover in rocks at 30mph people would argue that their carbon frame was more forgiving or the titanium shock spring gave more of a linear spring rate or their 2mm wider rim was too stiff. 

It was all bollocks and they all knew it. It was basically just excuses for buying the fanciest, latest kit at daft prices or excuses for being slow. I think its tge same with instruments to a point. 

[Killed_by_Death]

 

Apparently fully Graphite necks have Zero dead spots, so it's not just cork-sniffing!

 

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

Apparently fully Graphite necks have Zero dead spots, so it's not just cork-sniffing!

Laminate necks are also apparently excellent for eliminating dead spots (as well as providing greater strength and additional protection against neck twist & bow)

[ezbass]

35 minutes ago, Killed_by_Death said:

When the string vibrates at a frequency resonant to the wood, you get dead spots, so yes it does make a difference.

When the wood is vibrating at a resonant frequency it saps away the energy from the vibration of the string.

 

Thereby making them the antithesis of tonewood.

[Killed_by_Death]

 

Using the term TONE wood almost implies that the wood imparts certain frequencies to the timbre, but it's the opposite.

Certain woods remove frequencies of a certain range, such as Ash is supposedly scooped. It's not reinforcing the highs & lows, it's removing the mids.

Paul Reed Smith did a Ted-Talk where he discusses how ALL of the system of a stringed-instrument is subtractive, there are no additions.

Of course he's commenting on 100% passive instruments. It's not a process of ADDing anything, it's a process of substracting the least possible.