A luthier's experience with tonewoods

[4000]

26 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

I wonder how many concerts and recordings, over the years, have been messed up because the bass wasn't the 'right' wood..? 

...

 

Very good. Not. 🙄 

Once again, different points are being argued. If I’m recording an instrument, I want it to sound as near to what’s in my head as possible, within the context of the track. Whether it makes any difference to anyone else is not in the slightest bit important to me. I’m creating something, and I want it to be as right as possible. Of course it never is 100% how you want it, but that’s not the point either. Do you really not care how things are when you’re creating something? 

[tegs07]

16 minutes ago, 4000 said:

Very good. Not. 🙄 

Once again, different points are being argued. If I’m recording an instrument, I want it to sound as near to what’s in my head as possible, within the context of the track. Whether it makes any difference to anyone else is not in the slightest bit important to me. I’m creating something, and I want it to be as right as possible. Of course it never is 100% how you want it, but that’s not the point either. Do you really not care how things are when you’re creating something? 

I guess this would also depend on the band and music played. If you’re creating something loud and raucous with a load of distortion, overdrive whatever would small factors like what wood the bass is made of have any impact?

I think this topic is highly subjective, personally I don’t get the objection to the term Tonewood it’s like being cross about the words Decking or fencing because there are no boats or people with Collinders on their head. It’s just a collective name.

Nor the idea that brands are try to fleece you. In my experience things are generally made with profit being a driving factor. If basses could be made of turds encased in plastic waste with no impact on sound then they would be.

Edited March 9, 2021 by tegs07

[deepbass5]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

I wonder how many concerts and recordings, over the years, have been messed up because the bass wasn't the 'right' wood..? 

i have been to a few Gigs like that, can't hear the Bass for the kick drum, could be the sound engineer hates bass players i suppose

[Cuzzie]

30 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I guess this would also depend on the band and music played. If you’re creating something loud and raucous with a load of distortion, overdrive whatever would small factors like what wood the bass is made of have any impact?

I think this topic is highly subjective, personally I don’t get the objection to the term Tonewood it’s like being cross about the words Decking or fencing because there are no boats or people with Collinders on their head. It’s just a collective name.

Nor the idea that brands are try to fleece you. In my experience things are generally made with profit being a driving factor. If basses could be made of turds encased in plastic waste with no impact on sound then they would be.

Turdburst - i keep telling people that’s what those basses are made of

[tegs07]

1 minute ago, Cuzzie said:

Turdburst - i keep telling people that’s what those basses are made of

My favourite bass is turdburst ... it even has a tort pick guard and an ashtray over the bridge. 
In its defence it is in keeping with the era it is from. Overall churning these out these days is akin to choosing platform shoes, psychedelic brown and purple carpets and Ford Cortina’s.

[Cuzzie]

25 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

My favourite bass is turdburst ... it even has a tort pick guard and an ashtray over the bridge. 
In its defence it is in keeping with the era it is from. Overall churning these out these days is akin to choosing platform shoes, psychedelic brown and purple carpets and Ford Cortina’s.

Oh dear - if I didn’t know you and quite like you that would be an unfriend moment - I’ll wear gloves like scott to play that

[tegs07]

7 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Oh dear - if I didn’t know you and quite like you that would be an unfriend moment - I’ll wear gloves like scott to play that

It’s even made of Tonewood though what flavour is hard to say being buried underneath all that tat.

Edited March 9, 2021 by tegs07

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, 4000 said:

... Do you really not care how things are when you’re creating something? 

Why these extremes..? I certainly do care about what I'm doing, and use as best I can my ears, and other clues, to get me the best result I can get, but the wood essence is, to me, too far from my faculties to be a factor. My drums are maple; do they sound 'maple'..? The tuning I use has far more impact. The different alloys used in cymbals is critical, but cymbals made from the same alloy, from the same maker, made the same day, sound different, so the alloy itself is not the criteria to use for choosing. I use my experience and my ears, and would usually close my eyes when trying out or choosing which cymbal to use. I have several guitars and basses, but I have no idea what essence they've been made from, and it matters not a jot to me. It's the sound I'm making that I'm concerned with, and is, for my usage, entirely unaffected by the wood alone. If your ears are that good, look after them carefully (no loud concerts, be wary of 'phones and the bands you play in...), as one's hearing 'goes' very quickly with advancing years. How do I know this..? Hmm... 

[mikel]

If a bass is well made and has good pups and hardware I cant tell the difference between ply and the best super duper toney Mc tonewood. There, I have said it. I would love to see some luthiers who bang on about how much difference it makes do some blind tests, on youtube.

[tegs07]

Ply is fine as long as it’s treated ... it’s not particularly great for grain or repeat screw changes and can be a swine to get dents out of. Personally I would prefer Ash, Alder or Basswood (other tonewoods are available.. insert preference here) for a bass body regardless of the tone question.

Edit: I have yet to find a bass that is 100% ply body. Usually they are a front and back ply over a frame of wood ... often multiple pieces of wood. 
 

Edited March 9, 2021 by tegs07

[4000]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

Why these extremes..? I certainly do care about what I'm doing, and use as best I can my ears, and other clues, to get me the best result I can get, but the wood essence is, to me, too far from my faculties to be a factor. My drums are maple; do they sound 'maple'..? The tuning I use has far more impact. The different alloys used in cymbals is critical, but cymbals made from the same alloy, from the same maker, made the same day, sound different, so the alloy itself is not the criteria to use for choosing. I use my experience and my ears, and would usually close my eyes when trying out or choosing which cymbal to use. I have several guitars and basses, but I have no idea what essence they've been made from, and it matters not a jot to me. It's the sound I'm making that I'm concerned with, and is, for my usage, entirely unaffected by the wood alone. If your ears are that good, look after them carefully (no loud concerts, be wary of 'phones and the bands you play in...), as one's hearing 'goes' very quickly with advancing years. How do I know this..? Hmm... 

But you seem to have completely missed  the point I was making, that the individual basses themselves in that example sounded different enough to me to affect/be noticeable in a mix, which may cause to me to choose one over another. I wasn’t making a point about the species of wood. 

For what it’s worth, playing live is the least important part of why I play, and in some ways the least satisfactory. 

[PlungerModerno]

3 hours ago, deepbass5 said:

i have been to a few Gigs like that, can't hear the Bass for the kick drum, could be the sound engineer hates bass players i suppose

Same. Or it could be the "Justice For All" scenario, where the bassist is taking the place of a very sadly missed former member, and they aren't happy to let him or her shine just yet.

 

[Dad3353]

23 minutes ago, 4000 said:

But you seem to have completely missed  the point I was making, that the individual basses themselves in that example sounded different enough to me to affect/be noticeable in a mix, which may cause to me to choose one over another. I wasn’t making a point about the species of wood. 

For what it’s worth, playing live is the least important part of why I play, and in some ways the least satisfactory. 

OK, a misunderstanding. The topic is 'tonewood', so I assumed, wrongly, as it turns out, that you were attributing a difference in sound of the basses to their essences. My mistake. Sorry. 

[4000]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

OK, a misunderstanding. The topic is 'tonewood', so I assumed, wrongly, as it turns out, that you were attributing a difference in sound of the basses to their essences. My mistake. Sorry. 

Well the difference could well be down to the wood, I’m not saying it isn’t either.😂 As in the particular pieces of wood in each individual instrument. They are, after all, part of the whole, as you seem to agree. 😉 

Going back to my own basses, all made of maple, each one has very different characteristics, both acoustically and amplified. So much so that I would tend to choose each for certain things based on their particular sound, although that certainly isn’t to say I can’t use any of them. That would be silly.

FWIW, I can’t eq them to sound the same as each other either, to my ears at least. 

[Beer of the Bass]

1 hour ago, tegs07 said:

Edit: I have yet to find a bass that is 100% ply body. Usually they are a front and back ply over a frame of wood ... often multiple pieces of wood. 

 

Full plywood bodies were common on lower priced instruments, especially those made in Korea, until some time in the 90s.  They started becoming less common after that.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Beer of the Bass

[Doctor J]

1 hour ago, tegs07 said:

Edit: I have yet to find a bass that is 100% ply body. Usually they are a front and back ply over a frame of wood ... often multiple pieces of wood. 
 

Here

 

[tegs07]

29 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

Full plywood bodies were common on lower priced instruments, especially those made in Korea, until some time in the 90s.  They started becoming less common after that.

Interesting... thanks will do some research on that.

[BigRedX]

In that the "plywood" thread I also posted these basses:

This bass is made by Jens Ritter who is a well-respected high-end luthier. I know that it's not standard plywood, but it is made up of multiple thin layers of wood rather than a single piece of "tone wood".

And this one is by Bas Extravaganza, and is actual plywood bought from his local DIY superstore and built to show that it perfectly possible to make a great sounding bass out of very ordinary materials.

[Cuzzie]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

In that the "plywood" thread I also posted these basses:

This bass is made by Jens Ritter who is a well-respected high-end luthier. I know that it's not standard plywood, but it is made up of multiple thin layers of wood rather than a single piece of "tone wood".

And this one is by Bas Extravaganza, and is actual plywood bought from his local DIY superstore and built to show that it perfectly possible to make a great sounding bass out of very ordinary materials.

What were the bits of wood used in the bass by Jens?

Edited March 10, 2021 by Cuzzie

[BigRedX]

9 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

What were the bits of wood used in the bass by Jens?

Just had a look and it turns out he's made a couple like that. The body wood is just listed as "Custom High-Dense Ply". If you look at the data sheets for the other multi-piece bodies all the individual woods used are listed, which would indicate that there is nothing special about the woods used for the body of this bass.

Full details can be found here.

Edited March 10, 2021 by BigRedX

[Cuzzie]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Just had a look and it turns out he's made a couple like that. The body wood is just listed as "Custom High-Dense Ply", so I don't suppose its anything special in terms of "tone wood".

Full details can be found here.

It’s a great piece of art.

I am not sure though anyone has said the ply isn’t tonewood - so it still is!

[Doctor J]

Surely it's tonewoods, not tonewood?

[Cuzzie]

5 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Surely it's tonewoods, not tonewood?

Or is it like sheep and sheeps 

when they are 1 construct are they as one.......??

[Doctor J]

Is a maple neck and rosewood fretboard one? 😁

[tegs07]

21 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Is a maple neck and rosewood fretboard one? 😁

Indeed. They are both tonewood.