A luthier's experience with tonewoods

[Kev]

6 hours ago, drTStingray said:

Its similar with electric solid bodied instruments - different wood (even pieces of wood of the same type) resonate differently - that resonation transfers to the strings, to the pick ups. Clearly the electronics package plays a part in the final sound but then so does every other part of the system that makes up a bass guitar. 

Absolutely this.  I don't really care about the science of it, different woods naturally have different densities and vibrate differently.  This certainly carries through to the sound being amplified.  Chambered bodies certainly have a stronger say than solid bodies, but its still very noticable.  A solid Bubinga body sounds nothing like a solid Swamp Ash body.  But, equally, a particular piece of bubinga may resonate differently than another one.  I have owned four Warwick Thumb NT basses, for example, all having identical construction in terms of how "solid" the build is, and two pairs of the exact same pickups/preamp.  They all sounded different, noticeably so.

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, Doctor J said:

No, not the same analogy for solidbody instruments, that is the entire point.

I think there are two different contexts.  Otherwise it's comparing apples to oranges. 

[Bigguy2017]

On 25/02/2021 at 15:17, bubinga5 said:

This always confused me. Mr Wyn ( he makes some incredible instruments) dropping pieces of wood on the floor to demonstrate how they sound. ? They are all different shapes and sizes.erm, they are going to sound different.  Im sure different wood have different tonal vibrational qualities but surely his method does not really add up.? . Then you add different structural methods/pickups, etc etc. To add to this complexity guys like Mr Wyn add even more woods to mix with other woods.  Skip to 4.20 .   

 

Now make all the pieces the same size and repeat your 'experiment'... you'll then hear pitch change with density.

And have made a funky marimba  😉

[BigRedX]

5 minutes ago, Bigguy2017 said:

Now make all the pieces the same size and repeat your 'experiment'... you'll then hear pitch change with density.

And have made a funky marimba  😉

An the important word is "density" and not "species".

Edited March 12, 2021 by BigRedX

[ezbass]

Surely this thread is done now? There are two camps here, ‘wood makes a difference on solid bodied instruments’ and ‘wood doesn’t make an appreciable difference on solid bodied instruments’. No one is changing their mind and some folk are getting bent out of shape. Let’s agree to disagree and get on with some actual bass playing.

Rant over.

[Doctor J]

Where's the fun in  that? 😂

[MacDaddy]

1 hour ago, ezbass said:

Surely this thread is done now? There are two camps here, ‘wood makes a difference on solid bodied instruments’ and ‘wood doesn’t make an appreciable difference on solid bodied instruments’. No one is changing their mind and some folk are getting bent out of shape. Let’s agree to disagree and get on with some actual bass playing.

Rant over.

yes, but one camp is wrong

 

[ezbass]

Just now, Doctor J said:

Where's the fun in  that? 😂

C’mon, this thread stopped being fun a while back, now it’s heading towards spiteful.

I note the emoji indicating jest and that’s exactly the kind of thing I would say. However, there have been a few, seemingly innocent, threads lately that have descended to the murky, levels of political and religious threads. Lockdown has brought our the worst characteristics of the keyboard warrior and it’d be a shame for BC folk to take a huge dislike to others or even the forum itself and certainly before new admin guidelines ask us to avoid politics, religion and tonewood 🤣.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, ezbass said:

Surely this thread is done now? There are two camps here, ‘wood makes a difference on solid bodied instruments’ and ‘wood doesn’t make an appreciable difference on solid bodied instruments’. No one is changing their mind and some folk are getting bent out of shape. Let’s agree to disagree and get on with some actual bass playing.

Rant over.

That's oversimplifying things. 

I think you'll find that there's more than a few people here that are of the opinion that the wood can make a difference. However when compared with all the other things on a bass that can also make a difference the choice of wood is one of the less important factors. Also the difference it makes cannot be predicted simply by knowing what wood(s) has been used in the construction.

The other important thing to take away from this discussion is that solid electric instruments are completely different from acoustic instruments and what is important in the construction an sound of one is not necessarily important in the other.

[tegs07]

1 hour ago, ezbass said:

Surely this thread is done now? There are two camps here, ‘wood makes a difference on solid bodied instruments’ and ‘wood doesn’t make an appreciable difference on solid bodied instruments’. No one is changing their mind and some folk are getting bent out of shape. Let’s agree to disagree and get on with some actual bass playing.

Rant over.

There is a a third camp. Tonewood is a generic name for wood used to make instruments. It may make a difference or not but it is still known as Tonewood. If ply is used to make an instrument it is Tonewood!

[Cuzzie]

32 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

There is a a third camp. Tonewood is a generic name for wood used to make instruments. It may make a difference or not but it is still known as Tonewood. If ply is used to make an instrument it is Tonewood!

Exactly

No one has said wood makes no difference, people have varied on the level of difference

But a difference is a difference - that’s about it!

[ezbass]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

That's oversimplifying things. 

I think you'll find that there's more than a few people here that are of the opinion that the wood can make a difference. However when compared with all the other things on a bass that can also make a difference the choice of wood is one of the less important factors. Also the difference it makes cannot be predicted simply by knowing what wood(s) has been used in the construction.

The other important thing to take away from this discussion is that solid electric instruments are completely different from acoustic instruments and what is important in the construction an sound of one is not necessarily important in the other.

You are not wrong. However, check how many times versions of the above statement have been repeated in one form or another and also the opposing view, it’s become a more mature version of “IS!” “ISN’T!”. This thread is now just chasing its own tail. 

[Kev]

Just now, ezbass said:

You are not wrong. However, check how many times versions of the above statement have been repeated in one form or another and also the opposing view, it’s become a more mature version of “IS!” “ISN’T!”. This thread is now just chasing its own tail. 

It isn't.

[TheLowDown]

That was addressed in the first post: both camps are each half right. It's nuanced, not one or the other.

Edited March 12, 2021 by TheLowDown

[ezbass]

4 minutes ago, Kev said:

It isn't.

IS! 🤣

[drTStingray]

7 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Were the Gibson and Martin equipped with magnetic or piezo pickups? Piezos pick up the vibration and convert it into a minute electrical signal. Therefore the resonance of the instrument will affect the amplified sound. Magnetics sense the movement of a string in a magnetic field. The resonance of the instrument has little to no effect on that.

I have a 1975 Martin D35. It has the Martin piezo bridge pickup installed. Fabulous guitar, but difficult to amplify because it is so resonant and powerful acoustically that controlling overtones and feedback is a real issue. I get better plugged in results with my cheap Yamaha, because it has a neutral and much less characterful sound acoustically.

"Stadium gig volume" is a product of the PA system, not the instrument. 

They were both piezo I think but I can't really remember - however the song (which was arpegiated on an acoustic) started on the Gibson and when the Martin was introduced it sounded completely different - a much fuller sound altogether and I think because of the guitar construction - same amp and I think, piezo system (some sort of Fishman?)

From this angle, I have a solid bodied electric bass guitar with both magnetic and piezo pick ups. Generally they're mixed together but I have used just the piezo before now and it sounds rather good - surely that must only pick up vibration from the body, strings and bridge. The body is basswood. 

Not all pick ups are magnetic.......but I think there's clearly vibration transfer with magnetic pick ups as well - unless it has absolutely no (or very little) resonance like concrete - or a bass with so many wood pieces glued together to make the body it's virtually solid and thus not very resonant. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by drTStingray

[mikel]

11 hours ago, ezbass said:

Surely this thread is done now? There are two camps here, ‘wood makes a difference on solid bodied instruments’ and ‘wood doesn’t make an appreciable difference on solid bodied instruments’. No one is changing their mind and some folk are getting bent out of shape. Let’s agree to disagree and get on with some actual bass playing.

Rant over.

No. People are making valid points. If people cant take on board the difference between acoustic and solid body instruments then that is simply being obtuse.

[ezbass]

41 minutes ago, mikel said:

No. People are making valid points. If people cant take on board the difference between acoustic and solid body instruments then that is simply being obtuse.

Yes they did make valid points and acoustic and solid bodied instruments are different things. But, as I’ve already stated, the thread is circling. Gah! I’ve just circled around my own post 🤣. 

[4000]

On 12/03/2021 at 11:08, ezbass said:

Surely this thread is done now? There are two camps here, ‘wood makes a difference on solid bodied instruments’ and ‘wood doesn’t make an appreciable difference on solid bodied instruments’. No one is changing their mind and some folk are getting bent out of shape.

Unfortunately, that’s pretty much every discussion on every Internet forum ever. Except for the wood/instruments bit. 😉

Edited March 13, 2021 by 4000

[StickyDBRmf]

I have a genuine question and I'm lazy - I think I might have mentioned it earlier or I might have mentioned it in the plywood discussion. I have a Chapman Stick made of laminated bamboo. Now, this runs the length of the instrument - tip to tail. But the NS Stick can be ordered with a bamboo neck (the NS is a bolt-on). Are there any basses out there made of/incorporating laminated bamboo construction? Emmett Chapman has chose it for it's "rigidity and strength". He also happens to call his wooden Sticks "wooden" or "hardwood". To further complicate the discussion the Stick covers both the bass and guitar range. So what does he know, he only invented an instrument. And then there's the Warr Guitar. (whoops)...

[GreeneKing]

I read an academic tome where a professor explained that what we ‘hear’ (our chosen response to sound) is not only affected by our ears and the brains response to them but is also coloured and conditioned by our brain in the first place.

So it’s complicated by our biases before we start to listen.

This is used to justify expensive HiFi to those discerning enough to tell the difference.

Edited March 13, 2021 by GreeneKing

[Dan Dare]

19 minutes ago, StickyDBRmf said:

I have a genuine question and I'm lazy - I think I might have mentioned it earlier or I might have mentioned it in the plywood discussion. I have a Chapman Stick made of laminated bamboo. Now, this runs the length of the instrument - tip to tail. But the NS Stick can be ordered with a bamboo neck (the NS is a bolt-on). Are there any basses out there made of/incorporating laminated bamboo construction? Emmett Chapman has chose it for it's "rigidity and strength". He also happens to call his wooden Sticks "wooden" or "hardwood". To further complicate the discussion the Stick covers both the bass and guitar range. So what does he know, he only invented an instrument. And then there's the Warr Guitar. (whoops)...

Interesting that Chapman chose laminated bamboo. I've always understood that bamboo, whilst very strong (weight for weight, it is pretty much equivalent to steel), has natural flexibility/compliance and can withstand repeated bending stresses and recover quickly. That's why it was traditionally used for fishing rods. It has also been used to make violin bow sticks, which again must be light, flexible and recover swiftly from flexing. Rigidity doesn't strike one as being one of its main qualities, although I expect laminating can be used to achieve that. It would require many layers of lamination to make something the size of a bass or a Stick because bamboo  is hollow, with thin walls. That would likely make building guitars and basses from it very expensive.

[StickyDBRmf]

Go to Stick.com and take a look. Many layers. 47" long. Same price as "hardwoods". I guess he's figured out a way. Like making a cutting board, I guess. The man has imagination.

 

[Lfalex v1.1]

 

These work okay for me. Not much wood apart from Maple necks and Rosewood boards 😉

Edited March 13, 2021 by Lfalex v1.1

[BigRedX]

17 hours ago, StickyDBRmf said:

I have a genuine question and I'm lazy - I think I might have mentioned it earlier or I might have mentioned it in the plywood discussion. I have a Chapman Stick made of laminated bamboo. Now, this runs the length of the instrument - tip to tail. But the NS Stick can be ordered with a bamboo neck (the NS is a bolt-on). Are there any basses out there made of/incorporating laminated bamboo construction? Emmett Chapman has chose it for it's "rigidity and strength". He also happens to call his wooden Sticks "wooden" or "hardwood". To further complicate the discussion the Stick covers both the bass and guitar range. So what does he know, he only invented an instrument. And then there's the Warr Guitar. (whoops)...

IIRC some of the 60 and early 70s Japanese guitars with stripy necks are made of laminated bamboo. 

Hopefully @Bassassin will be along to confirm this or to put me right.